Dean Smith - reflection & appreciation

[sickbeggar]

Well yeah, I think Davis could do a job in a non "you're supposed to score" position. Which begs the question why Smith never tried it, or Bruce or anyone else as he's quite clearly not a goalscorer.

[paul_e]

I honestly don't think Davis is shite, if he could've stayed fit consistently for the last 3-4 seasons I think he'd have 100 appearances for us and we probably wouldn't have signed Ings. I suspect he'd have a record similar to Heskey in that he'd go long periods without a goal and then score little flurries but would stay around the team for the hold-up play and teamwork he brings. His fitness is the problem not his ability, I honestly don't think we've seen him fully fit since the run of games he had under Bruce 4 years ago. Since then he's always looked like he's playing at 90% trying to avoid more injuries and not quite trusting himself.

[Risso]

He makes Heskey look like Lewandowski.

[Legion]

He makes Harewood look like Lewandowski.

[LeeB]

I'm going to dig up these posts when he gets his England call up after saving Norwich from relegation.

[paul_e]

I just don't see how anyone can have a definitive opinion on his ability (his fitness isn't a matter of opinion, he's been made of glass for the last 3-4 years).

6 goals and 7 assists in 86 appearances, on the surface, looks terrible but the amount of those games where he was on the pitch for less than 15 minutes is huge. in terms of mniutes he has a goal or assist about every 2 1/2 games. What's impossible to say, because of his injury problems, is whether the goals/assists per game or per minutes is the more accurate stat.

He has no future at Villa really, Watkins and Ings are miles ahead, Archer should be in front of him now and I suspect Caleb Chuk will as well before long and then we have Barry and Young who will come into things before long. That's why I can see him in the championship next year and, if that happens and the move helps him get over the injuries I can see him having a big impact in that league.

[eamonn]

Yeah, I wince at people calling Keinan shit/useless. He's clearly not, otherwise Dean wouldn't have awarded him a new contract. He won us points around Easter time by coming off the bench to assist against Fulham (twice?) and a late equaliser against the Baggies. He's just never had a stretch of starts in the team to prove himself more for us at this level.

He's further down the pecking order now but still has qualities that none of our other strikers have and for the presumably low-ish wages (comparably) he's on, I've no issue him being in and around the squad/team if no one is going to pay us a decent fee (i.e £5m + add-ons to £10m based on appearances....£5m it is then).

[kippaxvilla2]

He makes Balaban look like Lewandowski.  Okay that might be stretching it a bit.

[Risso]

I just don't see how anyone can have a definitive opinion on his ability (his fitness isn't a matter of opinion, he's been made of glass for the last 3-4 years).

6 goals and 7 assists in 86 appearances, on the surface, looks terrible but the amount of those games where he was on the pitch for less than 15 minutes is huge. in terms of mniutes he has a goal or assist about every 2 1/2 games. What's impossible to say, because of his injury problems, is whether the goals/assists per game or per minutes is the more accurate stat.

He has no future at Villa really, Watkins and Ings are miles ahead, Archer should be in front of him now and I suspect Caleb Chuk will as well before long and then we have Barry and Young who will come into things before long. That's why I can see him in the championship next year and, if that happens and the move helps him get over the injuries I can see him having a big impact in that league.

1 Premier League goal
3 goals against League 1 sides in various cups
1 cup goal against a League 2 side
2 in the Championship

However you dress it up, that's woeful.

[paul_e]

I just don't see how anyone can have a definitive opinion on his ability (his fitness isn't a matter of opinion, he's been made of glass for the last 3-4 years).

6 goals and 7 assists in 86 appearances, on the surface, looks terrible but the amount of those games where he was on the pitch for less than 15 minutes is huge. in terms of mniutes he has a goal or assist about every 2 1/2 games. What's impossible to say, because of his injury problems, is whether the goals/assists per game or per minutes is the more accurate stat.

He has no future at Villa really, Watkins and Ings are miles ahead, Archer should be in front of him now and I suspect Caleb Chuk will as well before long and then we have Barry and Young who will come into things before long. That's why I can see him in the championship next year and, if that happens and the move helps him get over the injuries I can see him having a big impact in that league.

1 Premier League goal
3 goals against League 1 sides in various cups
1 cup goal against a League 2 side
2 in the Championship

However you dress it up, that's woeful.

I'm not dressing anything up, I gave 2 angles to look at the same stats and said that I don't know which of the 2 is a fair reflection. Listing who he's scored against doesn't really change anything.

[LeeB]

Talksport levels of debate from Risso there.

It's a shame as I think he's capable of more, maybe injuries sustained falling through his own ceiling have taken their toll.

[Smithy]

I just don't see how anyone can have a definitive opinion on his ability (his fitness isn't a matter of opinion, he's been made of glass for the last 3-4 years).

6 goals and 7 assists in 86 appearances, on the surface, looks terrible but the amount of those games where he was on the pitch for less than 15 minutes is huge. in terms of mniutes he has a goal or assist about every 2 1/2 games. What's impossible to say, because of his injury problems, is whether the goals/assists per game or per minutes is the more accurate stat.

He has no future at Villa really, Watkins and Ings are miles ahead, Archer should be in front of him now and I suspect Caleb Chuk will as well before long and then we have Barry and Young who will come into things before long. That's why I can see him in the championship next year and, if that happens and the move helps him get over the injuries I can see him having a big impact in that league.

1 Premier League goal
3 goals against League 1 sides in various cups
1 cup goal against a League 2 side
2 in the Championship

However you dress it up, that's woeful.

I'm not going to say Davis is a world-beater, clearly he's extremely unlikely to ever become a 20-goal a season striker, but using stats like this don't really prove anything without the context of the amount of time he's actually spent on the pitch.

Davis' ONE goal in the whole of last season gives him a better goals-per-minute ratio than both Ings and Watkins have THIS season.  Does that make him a better striker? Of it doesn't, he's not even close to their level, but beating him up for a poor goal-scoring record without also acknowledging he's not played much at all in the last three years is unfair on him.

I think he'll do a good job for someone in the Championship with a run of games.  I doubt he's what Norwich really need, but if he goes there in Jan and scores a couple of goals and gets a few assists with his hold up play, all on their way to scrambling to safety, then I'm sure they'll see him as a very good signing.  And if they go down, he'll do OK for them in the Championship.

Really, he should have been on loan in the Championship now, but either we had no takers, or we didn't want him to go.  Neither of which is particularly good news.  His career is passing him by, and he needs to go and play - if Dean wants him, then great, it's a bit of cash - but I also think it would be foolish to not include some sort of sell-on clause, because you never know.  He could be Ivan Toney in 18 months (unlikely, but possible).

[LeeB]

I had a weird conversation regarding Davis recently with a good friend and his mate, who's ok but I've had disagreements with in the past.

He got quite shirty at me suggesting that there may be more to come from Davis, all "If he hasn't done it by now etc", and I think me pointing out that Vardy was playing for Stocksbridge at the same age finished him off.

I don't get why people are so determined to put footballers into neat boxes regarding their ability, like once it's been decided that's it, and it will never change, despite examples everywhere proving otherwise. 

[Risso]

Talksport levels of debate from Risso there.

It's a shame as I think he's capable of more, maybe injuries sustained falling through his own ceiling have taken their toll.

He's got three league goals in 4 years, and the rest (such as they are) against lower league shite in cups. He's a Chorley FM level striker, abysmal. I can't believe there's even a discussion to be had.

[Smithy]

Talksport levels of debate from Risso there.

It's a shame as I think he's capable of more, maybe injuries sustained falling through his own ceiling have taken their toll.

He's got three league goals in 4 years, and the rest (such as they are) against lower league shite in cups. He's a Chorley FM level striker, abysmal. I can't believe there's even a discussion to be had.

I think the debate seems to be polarised between people who think he's rubbish, and people who don't think he's good enough for us, but at the same time believe he's "not entirely rubbish".  I don't believe anyone is saying he should be getting a run of games for us? I think we've moved way past that level now as a club (thankfully).

However, if league goals is the only real objective measure of a striker, then you'll be calling for Louie Barry to be given a free transfer in January, given he's spent this season in lowly League One and yet still hasn't scored a single league goal?  I'm being facetious, clearly, just pointing out you can't score goals if you don't play - and Davis hasn't played regularly for us since he was 19 and Steve Bruce was manager.

EDIT: for the record, I hope he moves on and does well wherever he goes. I always have a soft spot for young players that don't quite make it with us, as opposed to established pros that we jettison or ask to leave.