FFP

[boozey182]

The club are certainly a lot more vocal now about the restrictions. I think we need to be careful that we don't make it our 'identity' if that makes sense? Pretty much every article I've seen written about us recently has referred to FFP/PSR etc. I worry that it becomes something for us to hide behind.

For example, the last game of the season (which I'm still not fully over) had a huge impact on what we could do this summer. The ref made a horrific mistake. The team we were playing don't have the same restrictions on what they can spend as we do, despite performing much worse than us for a couple of years. However, our performance was utterly dreadful. Same as in the FA Cup Semi final.

This is the big difference for us, compared to some of the other teams. We can't afford to make mistakes, whereas they can. We can't afford to spend big money on a player that doesn't make us a much better team. We can't afford to hire the wrong manager (we did that four years ago and we're still paying for it), we can't afford to miss opportunities like we had last season. To be one of the best teams in the country, we need to get everything right - that's what we need to focus on.

Moaning about the rules is fine if we funnel that into something positive. Use the burning injustice as fuel - great. Create the us vs them mentality that might make the atmosphere a bit more intense, the players snapping into tackles etc. But that isn't what happened on Saturday. It was flat - like a "oh, what's the point, everything is against us" feeling. We can't afford to go into many matches like we started at the weekend.

[Rigadon]

I'm coming to the conclusion that there isn't a 'model' that exists that would enable any club to break through the glass ceiling and remain above it.  People always cite Brighton as the best example - the Brighton whose average league position over the last 5 years has been 10th place.  They've sold some players for loads of money though, so that's good. 

All is not lost, of course.  Unai is a genius who has transformed the team from the shower of shit it was under late stage Gerrard, and we will be competitive against most teams.  But with these rules in place, 6th-9th and 'going far' in the cups seems about as good as it will get (yes that's better than relegation before somebody says it but it's not where we could be if allowed to compete financially and I doubt it's where Emery and co want to be long term).

[aev]

They've already received one points deduction for breaching the rules so probably not the model we should be following.

Maybe, but presumably that was for what they did, not what they are doing now.

[Sexual Ealing]

The club are certainly a lot more vocal now about the restrictions. I think we need to be careful that we don't make it our 'identity' if that makes sense? Pretty much every article I've seen written about us recently has referred to FFP/PSR etc. I worry that it becomes something for us to hide behind.

For example, the last game of the season (which I'm still not fully over) had a huge impact on what we could do this summer. The ref made a horrific mistake. The team we were playing don't have the same restrictions on what they can spend as we do, despite performing much worse than us for a couple of years. However, our performance was utterly dreadful. Same as in the FA Cup Semi final.

This is the big difference for us, compared to some of the other teams. We can't afford to make mistakes, whereas they can. We can't afford to spend big money on a player that doesn't make us a much better team. We can't afford to hire the wrong manager (we did that four years ago and we're still paying for it), we can't afford to miss opportunities like we had last season. To be one of the best teams in the country, we need to get everything right - that's what we need to focus on.

Moaning about the rules is fine if we funnel that into something positive. Use the burning injustice as fuel - great. Create the us vs them mentality that might make the atmosphere a bit more intense, the players snapping into tackles etc. But that isn't what happened on Saturday. It was flat - like a "oh, what's the point, everything is against us" feeling. We can't afford to go into many matches like we started at the weekend.

Yes.

[aj2k77]

To be fair to us in relation to Forest, we've finished 4th and 6th whilst they finished 17th and 7th. The wage bills will reflect that and as for they're building a squad, they're going to need to. They totally fell apart last season and this season they have Thursday nights to contend with too. We haven't done poorly, we've done really well but it feels like an unnatural glass ceiling we've hit now, Forest haven't reached theirs yet but the more consistent you are the more consistent the demands the more money you have to pay out and after a couple of years it bites and unless you've miraculously grew your revenue 300% in 3 seasons you face punishment.

We needed a trophy to show for it, not for financial reasons, just for us. 4th may have been our high point, for now. We can come again, I don't think it will be this season though. Newcastle have finished top 4 twice in a few seasons, we can do the same.

[aj2k77]

The club are certainly a lot more vocal now about the restrictions. I think we need to be careful that we don't make it our 'identity' if that makes sense? Pretty much every article I've seen written about us recently has referred to FFP/PSR etc. I worry that it becomes something for us to hide behind.

For example, the last game of the season (which I'm still not fully over) had a huge impact on what we could do this summer. The ref made a horrific mistake. The team we were playing don't have the same restrictions on what they can spend as we do, despite performing much worse than us for a couple of years. However, our performance was utterly dreadful. Same as in the FA Cup Semi final.

This is the big difference for us, compared to some of the other teams. We can't afford to make mistakes, whereas they can. We can't afford to spend big money on a player that doesn't make us a much better team. We can't afford to hire the wrong manager (we did that four years ago and we're still paying for it), we can't afford to miss opportunities like we had last season. To be one of the best teams in the country, we need to get everything right - that's what we need to focus on.

Moaning about the rules is fine if we funnel that into something positive. Use the burning injustice as fuel - great. Create the us vs them mentality that might make the atmosphere a bit more intense, the players snapping into tackles etc. But that isn't what happened on Saturday. It was flat - like a "oh, what's the point, everything is against us" feeling. We can't afford to go into many matches like we started at the weekend.

Yes.

Yes, I don't think we can be spending £100m on Malen, Onana and Maatasen and get the return we do from them and expect our finances to be good and finish in the top 4.

[Pat Mustard]

The club are certainly a lot more vocal now about the restrictions. I think we need to be careful that we don't make it our 'identity' if that makes sense? Pretty much every article I've seen written about us recently has referred to FFP/PSR etc. I worry that it becomes something for us to hide behind.

For example, the last game of the season (which I'm still not fully over) had a huge impact on what we could do this summer. The ref made a horrific mistake. The team we were playing don't have the same restrictions on what they can spend as we do, despite performing much worse than us for a couple of years. However, our performance was utterly dreadful. Same as in the FA Cup Semi final.

This is the big difference for us, compared to some of the other teams. We can't afford to make mistakes, whereas they can. We can't afford to spend big money on a player that doesn't make us a much better team. We can't afford to hire the wrong manager (we did that four years ago and we're still paying for it), we can't afford to miss opportunities like we had last season. To be one of the best teams in the country, we need to get everything right - that's what we need to focus on.

Moaning about the rules is fine if we funnel that into something positive. Use the burning injustice as fuel - great. Create the us vs them mentality that might make the atmosphere a bit more intense, the players snapping into tackles etc. But that isn't what happened on Saturday. It was flat - like a "oh, what's the point, everything is against us" feeling. We can't afford to go into many matches like we started at the weekend.

Yes.

Yes, I don't think we can be spending £100m on Malen, Onana and Maatasen and get the return we do from them and expect our finances to be good and finish in the top 4.

That's just over £30 million on average for each of those players - where do you think a £30 million player fits into the squad at the likes of C115y, Liverpool, Arsenal, Manure etc?  It's a lot of money, but you don't get superstars for that kind of cash anymore, so unless you consistently strike lucky (which we have we the likes of Rogers, Watkins, Martinez, and even Duran considering what we sold him on for) then by definition you are only likely to get squad players at Champions League level for that kind of outlay.

To me, it seems the only way we can ever get back to any sort of level playing field is to have spending benchmarked against either the lowest or the highest level.  Clubs should be able to spend up to a level that allows them to compete (so in UCL, for example, every club could spend up to 80% of whatever the top-earning team can spend).  This way it prevents a Newcastle or PSG from killing the competition, but doesn't prevent new entrants like Villa from being completely hamstrung like we have been.

[Rigadon]

The club are certainly a lot more vocal now about the restrictions. I think we need to be careful that we don't make it our 'identity' if that makes sense? Pretty much every article I've seen written about us recently has referred to FFP/PSR etc. I worry that it becomes something for us to hide behind.

For example, the last game of the season (which I'm still not fully over) had a huge impact on what we could do this summer. The ref made a horrific mistake. The team we were playing don't have the same restrictions on what they can spend as we do, despite performing much worse than us for a couple of years. However, our performance was utterly dreadful. Same as in the FA Cup Semi final.

This is the big difference for us, compared to some of the other teams. We can't afford to make mistakes, whereas they can. We can't afford to spend big money on a player that doesn't make us a much better team. We can't afford to hire the wrong manager (we did that four years ago and we're still paying for it), we can't afford to miss opportunities like we had last season. To be one of the best teams in the country, we need to get everything right - that's what we need to focus on.

Moaning about the rules is fine if we funnel that into something positive. Use the burning injustice as fuel - great. Create the us vs them mentality that might make the atmosphere a bit more intense, the players snapping into tackles etc. But that isn't what happened on Saturday. It was flat - like a "oh, what's the point, everything is against us" feeling. We can't afford to go into many matches like we started at the weekend.

Yes.

Yes, I don't think we can be spending £100m on Malen, Onana and Maatasen and get the return we do from them and expect our finances to be good and finish in the top 4.

That's just over £30 million on average for each of those players - where do you think a £30 million player fits into the squad at the likes of C115y, Liverpool, Arsenal, Manure etc?  It's a lot of money, but you don't get superstars for that kind of cash anymore, so unless you consistently strike lucky (which we have we the likes of Rogers, Watkins, Martinez, and even Duran considering what we sold him on for) then by definition you are only likely to get squad players at Champions League level for that kind of outlay.

To me, it seems the only way we can ever get back to any sort of level playing field is to have spending benchmarked against either the lowest or the highest level.  Clubs should be able to spend up to a level that allows them to compete (so in UCL, for example, every club could spend up to 80% of whatever the top-earning team can spend).  This way it prevents a Newcastle or PSG from killing the competition, but doesn't prevent new entrants like Villa from being completely hamstrung like we have been.

Yes.

[The Edge]

Was chatting about FFP/PSR in the pub at the weekend, and someone made a point that I'm not entirely sure I have a good argument against.  FFP was brought in to stop clubs going bankrupt (or face the risk of it), which is preventing wealthy owners from investing amounts that they would like to, and closing the shop to those who built commercial juggernaughts in the pre FFP days.

So, if the aim is to stop clubs going bankrupt and spending beyond their means, why not have all financial transactions underwritten by owners and their personal wealth?  A bit like when parents will sometimes underwrite a loan for their kids in the early days of their financial independence.  The money still gets paid by the club, but if at any point they CAN'T pay it, the liability automatically transfers to the club owner in a personal capacity (or their business if a business owns the club).  That liability can be for transfers AND wages.

It removes the possibility of a club being bankrupted by careless spending, or going out of business due to their debts, as at no point would a default on money owed be "owed" by the club itself.

I don't know enough to know why this is a bad idea and why it wouldn't work in practise (aside from the obvious that it would open the purse strings massively for rich clubs and leave the rest behind).  Though I'm sure there are reason why it wouldn't work.  Just thought it is was an interesting thought experiment as an alternative to FFP if the genuine aim is "protect clubs from going bust".

I had an idea similar to this and we also chatted about it in the pub but I can't remember if I posted it on here. My idea was that any investor into a club must agree a bond depending on the club and the size of it's operations. They would agree the amount with the PL and put it in place before they are allowed to take over a club. This would then be used to keep said club going financially should they decide to leave. Let's face it no top Premier league club is going to go bust because owners would usually only be selling up to a bigger investor at a profit and they would redeem their bond and the new owners would have to then have a similar agreement with the FA. The other thing I would do is ban all state ownership of clubs otherwise a club like Newcastle with no financial restraints would just blow everyone out of the water and we'd be back to square one. I'm just spitballing tbh as I have a very limited understanding of big finance but the system as it stands has just guaranteed the Greedy6 domination. Having said all that Palace have built a very good team under the current restraints but it's highly unlikely they will challenge for the title any time soon.

[The Edge]

Forest seem to be building a decent squad.

I guess they can do this as they have been sensible with the wages they are offering.

Forest took a gamble. They pissed all over PSR and just took the hit they knew was coming. It certainly paid off for them.

[Drummond]

Was chatting about FFP/PSR in the pub at the weekend, and someone made a point that I'm not entirely sure I have a good argument against.  FFP was brought in to stop clubs going bankrupt (or face the risk of it), which is preventing wealthy owners from investing amounts that they would like to, and closing the shop to those who built commercial juggernaughts in the pre FFP days.

So, if the aim is to stop clubs going bankrupt and spending beyond their means, why not have all financial transactions underwritten by owners and their personal wealth?  A bit like when parents will sometimes underwrite a loan for their kids in the early days of their financial independence.  The money still gets paid by the club, but if at any point they CAN'T pay it, the liability automatically transfers to the club owner in a personal capacity (or their business if a business owns the club).  That liability can be for transfers AND wages.

It removes the possibility of a club being bankrupted by careless spending, or going out of business due to their debts, as at no point would a default on money owed be "owed" by the club itself.

I don't know enough to know why this is a bad idea and why it wouldn't work in practise (aside from the obvious that it would open the purse strings massively for rich clubs and leave the rest behind).  Though I'm sure there are reason why it wouldn't work.  Just thought it is was an interesting thought experiment as an alternative to FFP if the genuine aim is "protect clubs from going bust".

I had an idea similar to this and we also chatted about it in the pub but I can't remember if I posted it on here. My idea was that any investor into a club must agree a bond depending on the club and the size of it's operations. They would agree the amount with the PL and put it in place before they are allowed to take over a club. This would then be used to keep said club going financially should they decide to leave. Let's face it no top Premier league club is going to go bust because owners would usually only be selling up to a bigger investor at a profit and they would redeem their bond and the new owners would have to then have a similar agreement with the FA. The other thing I would do is ban all state ownership of clubs otherwise a club like Newcastle with no financial restraints would just blow everyone out of the water and we'd be back to square one. I'm just spitballing tbh as I have a very limited understanding of big finance but the system as it stands has just guaranteed the Greedy6 domination. Having said all that Palace have built a very good team under the current restraints but it's highly unlikely they will challenge for the title any time soon.

Newcastle would catch Man City and that would be that.

[LeeS]

We’ve got short memories on here. If you want to know what a brief period of spending beyond your means can do to a club just read the first couple of chapters of Waking the Giant. We should not forget just how close to the precipice we came. Close to oblivion.

Things might look different now, with billionaires and open cheque books. But things can change. Or not be quite what you believed in the first place.

[ChicagoLion]

Good post. Boozey. I feel we hit peak Villa last season and with the restrictions we are under its going to be difficult to maintain a top 6 finish particularly if we go deep into any cup competition.
There is no point in coming up with new ways of governing football because it ain’t happening.We are stuck with a corrupt system.

[Dave]

We’ve got short memories on here. If you want to know what a brief period of spending beyond your means can do to a club just read the first couple of chapters of Waking the Giant. We should not forget just how close to the precipice we came. Close to oblivion.

Things might look different now, with billionaires and open cheque books. But things can change. Or not be quite what you believed in the first place.

Agreed. When Man City and Chelsea were spending silly money I don’t remember people saying how good it was that they were able to "catch up" with more traditional sides.

In fact, I'm sure the the popular opinion on here was that someone should Do Something to stop these teams just throwing money around as it was distorting the league.

[Rigadon]

Some people are annoyed that our rise to world domination is being thwarted by the rules, others seem content with our current lot.  That’s ok but I wish we’d stop keeping on (and on) within the comparisons with how bad it’s been before.