Ross Barkley

[ChicagoLion]

This is fine in principle but needs to be applied to all players in the team/squad. Some players are expected to be without fault or weaknesses, but the tolerance levels for them are very low when they fall short. Allowances can't just be made for certain individuals and not others, not if we want a successful "team"

I was skeptical of getting Barkley in because of these issues, now I understand what he is and does its about using him appropriately.
I guess some think that Hourihane is criticised for his contribution without the ball which is also valid, the decision is who gives more to the team overall and right now its Barkley.

[paul_e]

As I said earlier I think the key thing with Barkley is to know when it's not the right game for him. Either by not starting him or by being willing to replace him. If we can carry him he adds something to us going forward but when teams are pressing us and we're struggling to get control of the midfield we might need to put nakamba or Hourihane in there to give us a bit more structure.

[Lastfootstamper]

Hourihane is made of fog! ©Risso

[Risso]

An ineffective Barkley is every bit as bad as an ineffective Hourihane.  Barkley at his best is a considerable upgrade on Conor though.

[paul_e]

Hourihane will play deeper and occupy space (making us harder to play through) and is better on set pieces so a game like Southampton, for example, might have gone better with him in there for the first half and Barkley coming on against tired legs.

[Abbeyfealeavfc]

I don't quite get the comparison between the 2 (Ross and Conor), because although it appeared Barkley was brought in as a midfielder, it appears his best role is as a second striker (playing off Ollie).
To my knowledge Conor has never played that position.
Jack is the closest we have who could play that role, but he seems to have made the wide left position of the front 3 his own, so even that comparison can't be made.

[Rudy65]

What sort of monetary value are we putting on Ross if we try to sign him?  Is he likely to be available?  Would you sign him, if so?

£25m and yes definitely, assuming his form continues  Could be more if he continues to play as well for the rest of the season. He is a real upgrade on what we have

[paul_e]

I don't quite get the comparison between the 2 (Ross and Conor), because although it appeared Barkley was brought in as a midfielder, it appears his best role is as a second striker (playing off Ollie).
To my knowledge Conor has never played that position.
Jack is the closest we have who could play that role, but he seems to have made the wide left position of the front 3 his own, so even that comparison can't be made.

The comparison is because 1 came into the team in place of the other. The discussion isn't about their relative abilities. It's really about the shape of the team. With Barkley you have to play 4231 because you know he's going to, as you say, play as almost a 2nd striker. With Hourihane you can play a 433 because he'll play deeper, but does also offer a threat from set pieces (not just direct free kicks, he's also our best corner taker and indirect free-kick taker, in my opinion). My point is that in some games the 4231 might not work and that's when we need to be willing to rest/replace Barkley, which we haven't done in the 2 games where he really struggled.

[Toronto Villa]

An ineffective Barkley is every bit as bad as an ineffective Hourihane.  Barkley at his best is a considerable upgrade on Conor though.

We’ve seen Jack ineffective and Douglas and McGinn. I don’t always get the criticism of Conor. He’s a top Championship player, a good PL player, someone who will come in and do a job as part of the squad. He’s not a player who would get into a top six aspirational side and as great as the start has been, realistically we are a season or two away from that.

So right now he fits in well with us. In a years time he will be a little further down the pecking order as we buy better again. But we are at his level in term of players we should have at the club and and he is just about at ours.

[Lastfootstamper]

With the way they played that day, I don't think Leeds would have noticed Hourihane was even on the pitch. It was exactly the kind of opposition performance that in the past had seen him blasted away and his head demanded.

Hourihane and Barkley are, to me anyway, exactly the same type of silky, skillful ball players that get branded as 'luxury'. Their roll is to get you something out of a game, not merely keep you in one. The only way either of them strengthen our midfield is by keeping the ball out of it. If steel's what you want, look elsewhere. Says me.

[Abbeyfealeavfc]

With Barkley it's all about team formation, so in that I agree with paul_e.
I didn't know much about Barkley before he came to Villa. Now I've seen him, he is best suited to playing as an extra striker (L'pool and Arsenal games are proof of that) where he doesn't have to shoulder midfield responsibilities.
If he continues to play this position the only player he could genuinely be compared with is Jack.
If he drops deeper into midfield then he can be compared with the likes of Luiz, John, Conor and Nakamba and in so doing if he plays like he did vs Leeds and Soton he will risk the same level of criticism when he makes mistakes as those players do, when they make mistakes (not necessarily from me I might add).

[Mister E]

With Barkley it's all about team formation, so in that I agree with paul_e.
I didn't know much about Barkley before he came to Villa. Now I've seen him, he is best suited to playing as an extra striker (L'pool and Arsenal games are proof of that) where he doesn't have to shoulder midfield responsibilities.
If he continues to play this position the only player he could genuinely be compared with is Jack.
If he drops deeper into midfield then he can be compared with the likes of Luiz, John, Conor and Nakamba and in so doing if he plays like he did vs Leeds and Soton he will risk the same level of criticism when he makes mistakes as those players do, when they make mistakes (not necessarily from me I might add).

Agreed.
There are games where we should be playing a 4-4-1-1, with Barkley behind Watkins, another MF in there alongside JG, Luiz and JMcG.

[brontebilly]

An ineffective Barkley is every bit as bad as an ineffective Hourihane.  Barkley at his best is a considerable upgrade on Conor though.

We’ve seen Jack ineffective and Douglas and McGinn. I don’t always get the criticism of Conor. He’s a top Championship player, a good PL player, someone who will come in and do a job as part of the squad. He’s not a player who would get into a top six aspirational side and as great as the start has been, realistically we are a season or two away from that.

So right now he fits in well with us. In a years time he will be a little further down the pecking order as we buy better again. But we are at his level in term of players we should have at the club and and he is just about at ours.

I know professional football is a ruthless game but Hourihane has been treated very harshly this season with his lack of playing minutes. Arguably he was our best midfielder against Sheff Utd but was first man off (was visibly seething coming off) when McGinn in particular was having a shocker. He got a goal and assist against Fulham in a fine display but hasn't played a single minute since. Against Leeds and Southampton, our midfield was torn apart and should have come on for any of them.  While against Liverpool and Arsenal the games were won long before the end so even a sympathy run out could have been warranted.

Not sure if there has been a fall out behind the scenes but I'm not sure why we haven't been emptying the bench more in recent games.

[Pat Mustard]

An ineffective Barkley is every bit as bad as an ineffective Hourihane.  Barkley at his best is a considerable upgrade on Conor though.

We’ve seen Jack ineffective and Douglas and McGinn. I don’t always get the criticism of Conor. He’s a top Championship player, a good PL player, someone who will come in and do a job as part of the squad. He’s not a player who would get into a top six aspirational side and as great as the start has been, realistically we are a season or two away from that.

So right now he fits in well with us. In a years time he will be a little further down the pecking order as we buy better again. But we are at his level in term of players we should have at the club and and he is just about at ours.

I know professional football is a ruthless game but Hourihane has been treated very harshly this season with his lack of playing minutes. Arguably he was our best midfielder against Sheff Utd but was first man off (was visibly seething coming off) when McGinn in particular was having a shocker. He got a goal and assist against Fulham in a fine display but hasn't played a single minute since. Against Leeds and Southampton, our midfield was torn apart and should have come on for any of them.  While against Liverpool and Arsenal the games were won long before the end so even a sympathy run out could have been warranted.

Not sure if there has been a fall out behind the scenes but I'm not sure why we haven't been emptying the bench more in recent games.

I suspect Conor will get plenty of game time in December and January - if anything we might be keeping him back now to reduce the chances of him getting injured ahead of the busiest period of the season.  Barkley is new so needs the minutes with the rest of the team (even accounting for the good start he's made with us), plus at the moment we are only really playing one game per week.  Come December the schedule ramps up a lot, so we will want players fresh and ready to come in.

Conor also seems like a brilliant professional and not the sort to upset things if he isn't getting a game.  I'm sure he will knuckle down and want to prove himself again when he gets the chance, plus he will be coming into a confident team so will have more opportunity to showcase the things he is good at.

[TelfordVilla]

hologram was every bit as poor for the republic of Ireland last night as he ever is with Villa. Every pass was backwards, no tackling, useless at defending corners, and he was their best player on the night !!!