MOTD

[cdbearsfan]

I'd imagine a high percentage of our players were back when there were very few internationals, before World War Two.

[paul_e]

Down to second, now. Still not too bad considering we were absolutely shite for nearly a decade.

http://www.englandfootballonline.com/teamclubs/MostPlyrs.html

What that shows though is that even though our players do get called up and get the odd cap they're rarely trusted to be regulars with the average being just 6 caps compared to 20 for Man U players, 16 for Liverpool and firmly into double figures for all the 'big 6'. It feels, to me, like Villa players get picked when the manager has no way of ignoring them any more, then they get a couple of caps in either nothing games or for 10mins as a sub before slowly being dropped out of the squad or leaving to give themselves a better chance to get more caps/trophies.

[Sexual Ealing]

Or you might be overthinking it Paul.

[cdbearsfan]

I think maybe Man U and Liverpool players get more caps because they've tended to be better than us for many decades.

[rob_bridge]

I think maybe Man U and Liverpool players get more caps because they've tended to be better than us for many decades.

Indeed when was our last nailed on starter for England. Delph was a regular during the post Golden Shite drains up for a year or two. Platt obviously but even that was only 1 season and some change. Barry in and out of squad. Milner became a squad regular.

Southgate probably.

[Monty]

As I remember it Barry became a pretty regular starter.

[Small Rodent]

The worst period was the early 80s, Coppell instead of Morley etc.

[paul_e]

Or you might be overthinking it Paul.

Not really, the sample size is big enough that it's statistically significant so there's no doubt that players at clubs around us (in terms of relative size and performance over our history) on average receive far more England caps than ours do. Whatever the reason there are plenty of Villa players who have either not gotten the recognition at all or who have been given a fraction of the caps they should've - https://www.englandstats.com/club.php?cid=5

I don't have a problem with us being less than some of those clubs but the amount of players on the list for us that get 1 or 2 caps is noticeable.

[Brazilian Villain]

Also, any Villa player good enough to be selected by England is likely to be tapped up as soon as they go on international duty.

[Chico Hamilton III]

The worst period was the early 80s, Coppell instead of Morley etc.

And how many of our 1982 European Champions played in the 1982 World Cup? Even the Scottish players.

[Sexual Ealing]

There have been lots of England managers over the years, all of whose success or failure depended on picking the best players and building the best team. They've occasionally picked Villa players, but mostly haven't.

They've all been out to get you. No other explanation.

[LeeB]

Back in the day they used to pick random Spurs/Chelsea/QPR/West Ham players just to try and get a bigger crowd into Wembley, I'm convinced of it.

[Brend'Watkins]

Back in the day they used to pick random Spurs/Chelsea/QPR/West Ham players just to try and get a bigger crowd into Wembley, I'm convinced of it.

There's a lot of truth in that. Especially when it's backed up by the London centric press who would promote any player from the capital who could drop a shoulder to world class.

[cdbearsfan]

Graham Gooch used to pick the star player of whichever county was playing Essex as England sub, so they couldn't play against Essex. The Apartheid-loving twat.

Anyway, I reckon we have reason to complain about the international representation of our early 80s squad, though Shaw and Cowans would surely have won more caps if not for injuries. I imagine most teams can point to players who could have won more caps, though. Steve Bruce... zero caps.

Don't think we have too much to complain about lately. Watkins is probably England's second best striker and I reckon he has the second most minutes of any England striker in the last couple of years. Konsa has got a fair few caps, and so did Mings before he got injured.

Rogers, maybe, but he's still young and England have millions of players in his position. If the England manager decides to pick arguably the best player in La Liga and the PFA Player of the Year ahead of him, it isn't evidence of an all-encompassing anti-Villa conspiracy.

They've also tended to be incredibly successful in the last eight years, so perhaps the manager was picking the right players.

[Dave]

Or you might be overthinking it Paul.

Not really, the sample size is big enough that it's statistically significant so there's no doubt that players at clubs around us (in terms of relative size and performance over our history) on average receive far more England caps than ours do. Whatever the reason there are plenty of Villa players who have either not gotten the recognition at all or who have been given a fraction of the caps they should've - https://www.englandstats.com/club.php?cid=5

I don't have a problem with us being less than some of those clubs but the amount of players on the list for us that get 1 or 2 caps is noticeable.

But if you dig deeper into the reasons why this might be the case, there are better ones than "well, they must just hate Villa for some unexplained reason".

As an example, 33 of the 77 Villa players capped for England had their entire international career before 1930, so nearly fifty years of internationals when it was virtually unheard of to have more than three matches in a year. So we will have a much higher proportion of players compared to other clubs for whom there weren't many matches in which to get capped. Which will bring the average cap-per-player down significantly.

Another one - our most capped England player is Southgate with 42. Then Barry on 29, then Vassell and Platt on 22. So compared to (the obvious) Spurs, they have Kane on 84 to massively pull the average up for all their one / two / three caps of their own. If you then look at the glut of players with 20 / 30 / 40 / 50 caps, Lineker, Gascoigne, Defoe, Robinson, Campbell, Sheringham, Greaves, Hoddle, Waddle, Alli, Mullery, Peters - there aren't many in there that you'd wonder why they were being picked.

Even the sort of player which I can imagine would be thrown back as "well, what about this guy though?", Eric Dier has more England caps than any Villa player in history. But he's spent most of the last ten years (and his entire England career) as first choice in a defence that was nearly always in the top six and regularly playing in the latter stages of the Champions League. Why wouldn't someone who was doing that at club level be getting picked for England quite a few times?

Looking at the list you provided, there are obviously the late 70s / early 80s crop, but beyond that - Barry when England needed a left-footer. Grealish (although I still think that was a bit overblown). Maybe Konsa a bit earlier than he was. Bent not going to the 2012 Euros perhaps? I might have forgotten someone obvious, but I'm struggling to think of anything ridiculous in the thirty odd years I've been watching.

And you can even counter that a bit, by how surprised even a lot of Villa fans were by the frequency Heskey and Vassell were being picked based on what they were doing for us.

Edit - incidentally, we've had 29 players with "1 or 2 caps". Spurs have had 27.