VAR

[Nev]

I noticed they had a camera showing the VAR plums but no sound, I didn't really see the point of that, they looked like they were just sitting there staring at the screens. TV show the replays but if you don't know what they are looking for what the fuck is the point?

Those lines never make any sense either, sometimes you have a dotted line to show the player in an offside position and then sometimes you don't. Why? It should be consistent in application. And the "looks ok to me" alacrity when checking an offside for the likes of Mo Salah is in stark contrast to the nonsense we saw yesterday.

[Drummond]

One we have semi automated offside it will sort all of this out. The fact we haven't is a joke. 

I'd be all for having GPS tags in the back of the players shirts so there's no sleeve / toe nonsense either.  But I appreciate that would give a slightly different dynamic to offside which isn't replicable down the pyramid.

Why do we insist on taking so much fun, uncertainty and craziness out of football. This idea that we must use technology because it's there is making the game less enjoyable. The logical conclusion is AI refs and robot wars. Football is meant to be enjoyable, fun, unpredictable, infuriating, emotional. It's not a science project.

Money.

[Smithy]

One we have semi automated offside it will sort all of this out. The fact we haven't is a joke. 

I'd be all for having GPS tags in the back of the players shirts so there's no sleeve / toe nonsense either.  But I appreciate that would give a slightly different dynamic to offside which isn't replicable down the pyramid.

Why do we insist on taking so much fun, uncertainty and craziness out of football. This idea that we must use technology because it's there is making the game less enjoyable. The logical conclusion is AI refs and robot wars. Football is meant to be enjoyable, fun, unpredictable, infuriating, emotional. It's not a science project.

Although I agree to a certain extent, I think in the last few years we've forgotten the pain and misery associated with a bad on-field decision that stood due to no one being around to correct it.  Either from refs missing something, or giving something that they shouldn't.  I think we're all guilty of romanticising football in the pre-VAR era.  VAR is far from perfect, and downright annoying a lot of the time, but let's not pretend that pre-VAR football wasn't without it's own significant issues. 

If VAR was turned off entirely tomorrow, I suspect people would be more incenced than they are now by bad officiating.  It's here now, so in my opinion it's about getting it to work better, and faster, because in it's current format it's just so awful as to be detrimental to the game.

[Simon Page]

One we have semi automated offside it will sort all of this out. The fact we haven't is a joke. 

I'd be all for having GPS tags in the back of the players shirts so there's no sleeve / toe nonsense either.  But I appreciate that would give a slightly different dynamic to offside which isn't replicable down the pyramid.

Why do we insist on taking so much fun, uncertainty and craziness out of football. This idea that we must use technology because it's there is making the game less enjoyable. The logical conclusion is AI refs and robot wars. Football is meant to be enjoyable, fun, unpredictable, infuriating, emotional. It's not a science project.

Money.

How, and for who?

[Drummond]

One we have semi automated offside it will sort all of this out. The fact we haven't is a joke. 

I'd be all for having GPS tags in the back of the players shirts so there's no sleeve / toe nonsense either.  But I appreciate that would give a slightly different dynamic to offside which isn't replicable down the pyramid.

Why do we insist on taking so much fun, uncertainty and craziness out of football. This idea that we must use technology because it's there is making the game less enjoyable. The logical conclusion is AI refs and robot wars. Football is meant to be enjoyable, fun, unpredictable, infuriating, emotional. It's not a science project.

Money.

How, and for who?

Money is the reason it's being sanitised; success and failure, and TV and betting revenues are so reliant on scores being right, lawyers are paid huge amounts and all to try and force their own points and agendas.

Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, and the arguments about shit refs and decisions used to be the topic of conversation whereas these days it's VAR and referees and shit decisions.

[Simon Page]

Although I agree to a certain extent, I think in the last few years we've forgotten the pain and misery associated with a bad on-field decision that stood due to no one being around to correct it.  Either from refs missing something, or giving something that they shouldn't.  I think we're all guilty of romanticising football in the pre-VAR era.  VAR is far from perfect, and downright annoying a lot of the time, but let's not pretend that pre-VAR football wasn't without it's own significant issues. 

If VAR was turned off entirely tomorrow, I suspect people would be more incenced than they are now by bad officiating.  It's here now, so in my opinion it's about getting it to work better, and faster, because in it's current format it's just so awful as to be detrimental to the game.

I'm not forgetting bad (or to be exact, incorrect) decisions pre-VAR. But neither am I looking for perfect decisions. I don't want a game of chess, I want football. Part of football is people falling over, keepers throwing the ball in their own net, the linesman momentarily wondering about what's for tea and missing the blatant offside, the ref 'accidentally' missing the punch in the face of that gobby little shite at inside right.

VAR is not perfect, so we have bad decisions and tedious rows delaying the football. And if VAR was perfect, how is my emotional attachment to football increased? I'd be a lot happier today if the lino had missed yesterday's offside and there was no VAR.

Drummond, the agendas thing sounds a bit paranoid to me. TV, betting firms, lawyers didn't care when Man City were in Div 3, Everton were challenging, Leicester won the league, Wigan won the cup. Meanwhile, the richest clubs were winning plenty without VAR. I don't see the link.

[chrisw1]

One we have semi automated offside it will sort all of this out. The fact we haven't is a joke. 

I'd be all for having GPS tags in the back of the players shirts so there's no sleeve / toe nonsense either.  But I appreciate that would give a slightly different dynamic to offside which isn't replicable down the pyramid.

Why do we insist on taking so much fun, uncertainty and craziness out of football. This idea that we must use technology because it's there is making the game less enjoyable. The logical conclusion is AI refs and robot wars. Football is meant to be enjoyable, fun, unpredictable, infuriating, emotional. It's not a science project.

Because offside can and should be a factual non emotional decision.  Why do we want to go back to the days of refs and linesmen being intimidated by the likes of Fergie (or the 'big clubs' generally)?

Argue all you like about whether VAR is right for other onfield decisions, but excluding a workable accurate technology for factual decisions like offsides and goaline tech would be romanticism for the sake of it.

[LeeB]

One we have semi automated offside it will sort all of this out. The fact we haven't is a joke. 

I'd be all for having GPS tags in the back of the players shirts so there's no sleeve / toe nonsense either.  But I appreciate that would give a slightly different dynamic to offside which isn't replicable down the pyramid.

Why do we insist on taking so much fun, uncertainty and craziness out of football. This idea that we must use technology because it's there is making the game less enjoyable. The logical conclusion is AI refs and robot wars. Football is meant to be enjoyable, fun, unpredictable, infuriating, emotional. It's not a science project.

Because offside can and should be a factual non emotional decision.  Why do we want to go back to the days of refs and linesmen being intimidated by the likes of Fergie (or the 'big clubs' generally)?

Argue all you like about whether VAR is right for other onfield decisions, but excluding a workable accurate technology for factual decisions like offsides and goaline tech would be romanticism for the sake of it.

Nah that's rubbish mate, nobody ever changed an offside because of pressure from a manager, and such influence is still being exerted in other ways and plays out in the unconcious (though I'm starting to doubt that) bias of the officials both on and off the pitch now.

Plus, as pointed out, the current technology cannot give factually correct outcomes.

[Simon Page]

You're talking about trackers on players, chips in a ball, stuff only available in the top leagues. But if it can be instant and infallible, I'm with you. This idea that manager intimidation and big club bias has been in any way altered by VAR is another myth. Look at the headlines, look at the apologies, look at the league table. VAR does nothing to make the game a more even contest.

[Somniloquism]

It's like what we are now doing at free kicks, where we have players in and around the keeper - it causes chaos and confusion and should be interfering with play and should be offside. But with the new rules, it isn't.

The "new" rules on interference has been in place almost 30 years as I believe it came in the mid-90's. I know we had a perfectly good goal chalked off in the first leg of the Blues cup match because Richardson(?) was in an offside position no where near the keeper as he made a run but the player on the ball (Houghton(?) ran threw and scored*. And no one batted an eyelid in the commentary about interfering.

*I was looking for the Saunders "offside" a few months ago and noticed that decision as well.

Also, you can't be offside until the ball is played and McGinn is walking away from the keeper at that point when he goes in to "cause chaos and confusion".

[chrisw1]

You don't think a lino has ever bottled putting a flag up because of crowd pressure or big club pressure?

You've got more faith in human nature than me.

The semi-automated can give as close to factually correct decisions as we'll ever get.  In a small number of instances it will need human input on whether a player is interfering with play, but him being offside or not should not be in question.

[chrisw1]

You're talking about trackers on players, chips in a ball, stuff only available in the top leagues. But if it can be instant and infallible, I'm with you. This idea that manager intimidation and big club bias has been in any way altered by VAR is another myth. Look at the headlines, look at the apologies, look at the league table. VAR does nothing to make the game a more even contest.

Did you not think the version they used in the world cup worked well?  We have that tech available to us now.  It takes about 20 seconds and no doubt they'll improve that further i time.

[LeeB]

It's like what we are now doing at free kicks, where we have players in and around the keeper - it causes chaos and confusion and should be interfering with play and should be offside. But with the new rules, it isn't.

The "new" rules on interference has been in place almost 30 years as I believe it came in the mid-90's. I know we had a perfectly good goal chalked off in the first leg of the Blues cup match because Richardson(?) was in an offside position no where near the keeper as he made a run but the player on the ball (Houghton(?) ran threw and scored*. And no one batted an eyelid in the commentary about interfering.

*I was looking for the Saunders "offside" a few months ago and noticed that decision as well.

Also, you can't be offside until the ball is played and McGinn is walking away from the keeper at that point when he goes in to "cause chaos and confusion".

I well remember scoring an absolute screamer for my Sunday team down on the Jaffray pitches in Erdington, a 25 yarder right into the stanchion from a cleared corner and the shithead ref ruling it out because one of our lads was a yard offside nowhere near it.

[Simon Page]

Factual or mainly factual? Delays to games or not? Sorry, I can't remember what the difference was in the world cup, but if VAR can't give me an instant, factual response, I'll take the ref and a game that makes me feel as much as possible.

[Somniloquism]

One we have semi automated offside it will sort all of this out. The fact we haven't is a joke. 

I'd be all for having GPS tags in the back of the players shirts so there's no sleeve / toe nonsense either.  But I appreciate that would give a slightly different dynamic to offside which isn't replicable down the pyramid.

GPS tags wouldn't work as the location would call someone onside when the attacker is facing forward and the defender is facing backwards.

The Semi Auto system works with camera around the stadium monitoring players on the pitch down to location and position of limbs. The ball accelerometer is the indicator of the pass (and probably suffers from the same exacto spot as choosing a frame) and then the computer works out were everyone is on the pitch and shows if someones leg is slightly ahead of the defender. Decision is still on the VAR operator for the goal but just takes out all the judgement of the lines etc.

Obviously it does use "AI" judgement so Simon won't like it.