VAR

[Lastfootstamper]

So other than the miked up bit, what's the difference now?

[chrisw1]

So other than the miked up bit, what's the difference now?

They don't discuss it and come to a joint decision, they don't work as a team.  The ref can't say, 'I think there's possibly a foul there what do you think' etc - it's still down to the clear and obvious error issue.   

[chrisw1]

I still struggle with why anyone thinks there's anything wrong with how rugby handle video assistance.  A qualified ref is watching on TV to help the onfield ref.  The onfield ref can either refer something or the VAR can speak to him live to say he thinks he's missed something.  The ref's miked up so everyone at home and in the ground can hear what he's saying and the ref watches the replay on the big screen so fans at home and in the ground can see what he sees.

Why the obsession with reinventing the wheel?

No, not in the ground, just on telly.

[Drummond]

Right now it's shit.

It's not transparent. It's not clear. It's not consistent. It's mates looking after each other rather than an independent review. Mic them up. Broadcast the review. Play the footage in real time, no slowing down or speeding up. No multiple angles.

Or ditch it.

[Ad@m]

I still struggle with why anyone thinks there's anything wrong with how rugby handle video assistance.  A qualified ref is watching on TV to help the onfield ref.  The onfield ref can either refer something or the VAR can speak to him live to say he thinks he's missed something.  The ref's miked up so everyone at home and in the ground can hear what he's saying and the ref watches the replay on the big screen so fans at home and in the ground can see what he sees.

Why the obsession with reinventing the wheel?

No, not in the ground, just on telly.

I've been at games where they've sold those little radios outside the ground where you can listen to what the refs saying to the video ref.  Maybe that's not all of them - I'm not an avid egg-chaser!

[john2710]

It’s the same idiots who were making mistakes before VAR that are still making mistakes with VAR.

Their interpretation of the rules change depending on what happened the previous week / day or even half. I’m convinced Robertson was sent off yesterday because Kane wasn’t in the first half.

A load of soft penalties last week, for which they were rightly criticised, translates into no penalties this week. They’ve gone back to protecting the refs on field decisions unless 100% wrong. The Man City pen vs Wolves being a prime example. Nobody saw that as a pen yet it stands.

We’ve got the best players in the world. But not one of the PL refs will be in Qatar later this year for a reason. We should be paying to bring the best refs in the world to the PL replacing these self-regulating amateurs.

[chrisw1]

Right now it's shit.

It's not transparent. It's not clear. It's not consistent. It's mates looking after each other rather than an independent review. Mic them up. Broadcast the review. Play the footage in real time, no slowing down or speeding up. No multiple angles.

Or ditch it.

I disagree about no slow motion, mutliple angles etc.  If they're going to use VAR then I want them to get it right as often as possible and if that takes 2 or 3 angles then so be it.

[exigo]

And in the 18/20 Premier League grounds that have big screens, put what the ref is watching up on the big screen. None of this 'we're not going to show it to protect the ref' nonsense. Maybe that'll stop the ref in a shed trying to protect the ref on the pitch. If you've made a mistake, that's fine, you're human. Just overturn the obvious decision.
And the Prem should insist that all grounds have a big screen to show those replays. Let's see how much of a fortress for decisions Anfield and Old Trafford are when 3,000 away fans in the ground get to see the replay too.

[Mister E]

Right now it's shit.
It's not transparent. It's not clear. It's not consistent. It's mates looking after each other rather than an independent review. Mic them up. Broadcast the review. Play the footage in real time, no slowing down or speeding up. No multiple angles.
Or ditch it.

I disagree about no slow motion, multiple angles etc.  If they're going to use VAR then I want them to get it right as often as possible and if that takes 2 or 3 angles then so be it.

As with Rugby, the more a slowed-down version of the incident is shown, the more it looks ugly and deliberate. So, there's a compromise required to show what actually happened without distorting the incident.

I wonder whether it should be a current referee in the VAR booth ... maybe retired refs could be deployed, to reduce the sense that the current crop are looking after their own. Or, ship in a foreign ref each weekend to do VAR duty; and do the same elsewhere with English refs (this may help the game to be more equitably refereed across Europe as well).

[Nev]

The same arguments that instigated the introduction of VAR are still being made now which leads you to conclude that it hasn't worked. However you frame it the system is reliant on human judgement in most cases and not objective so one mans red card is another mans caution and so on.

You can dance around it 'till the cows come home but despite alterations here and there the facts remain, while it is used for subjective decisions it is impossible to get everything correct. Only now we have long delays before decisions are made, strangled goal celebrations and an even bigger sense of injustice.

It doesn't work.

[The Edge]

Right now it's shit.

It's not transparent. It's not clear. It's not consistent. It's mates looking after each other rather than an independent review. Mic them up. Broadcast the review. Play the footage in real time, no slowing down or speeding up. No multiple angles.

Or ditch it.

I disagree about no slow motion, mutliple angles etc.  If they're going to use VAR then I want them to get it right as often as possible and if that takes 2 or 3 angles then so be it.

I agree about the angles. The ref should get all the available angles as that's usually their excuse for a wrong decision "the referee didn't get a clear view of the incident" Take that easy option away from them. I can think of at least two incidents last weekend where the ref had a perfect view of things and gave nothing. At Newcastle and Spurs but again you need their mates in the VAR studio to pull him up on it and make him look useless.
If one var ref does that to his mate then the others will view it as a stitch up and do the same to him when its their turn in the studio. Human error and ego's are playing a massive part in why it's such a monumental fuck up thus far.  But not slow-mo. That's total nonsense and makes everything look completely different to the actual event.

[ChicagoLion]

The problem is that the referees are either useless and or biased.
Instead of VAR making things better it’s made it worse and shown these idiots up for what they are.

[Ad@m]

Right now it's shit.

It's not transparent. It's not clear. It's not consistent. It's mates looking after each other rather than an independent review. Mic them up. Broadcast the review. Play the footage in real time, no slowing down or speeding up. No multiple angles.

Or ditch it.

I disagree about no slow motion, mutliple angles etc.  If they're going to use VAR then I want them to get it right as often as possible and if that takes 2 or 3 angles then so be it.

I agree about the angles. The ref should get all the available angles as that's usually their excuse for a wrong decision "the referee didn't get a clear view of the incident" Take that easy option away from them. I can think of at least two incidents last weekend where the ref had a perfect view of things and gave nothing. At Newcastle and Spurs but again you need their mates in the VAR studio to pull him up on it and make him look useless.
If one var ref does that to his mate then the others will view it as a stitch up and do the same to him when its their turn in the studio. Human error and ego's are playing a massive part in why it's such a monumental fuck up thus far.  But not slow-mo. That's total nonsense and makes everything look completely different to the actual event.

You really don't.  This is a big part of the problem.

Again, I know I keep banging on about rugby, but the way VAR is applied there works.  The video ref is there to save his mate on the field from making an absolute horlicks of a decision.  He's not re-referreeing and he's not there to show the onfield ref up.  If the onfield ref misses something, he's there to say "you might want to have another look at that one mate as I think you might have missed something".

The relationship is one of being part of a team who's overall aim is to avoid being the story in the Monday papers.  Not as a team under seige having to prove that the onfield ref always makes the right decision and the VAR is there to back that up.

[chrisw1]

Exactly.  And I've seen a video of an Aussie ref doing exactly the same with VAR in football and it seemed to work well.  The answer is there right in front of them yet they are too arrogant or stupid to grab it.

[paul_e]

Thirded, it's very easy to get VAR to a point of being a useful part of the refs toolkit but the first step is for refs to stop thinking they have to project a air of perfection.

They're human and will make mistakes but instead of covering them up and hiding behind obscure interpretations of the rules they need to own up to them and agree to do better and, importantly, they need to admit that doing that means giving themselves time to think.

As happens a lot with tech if you try to keep things as they are and implement some sort of 'halfway' solutiion you normally end up with the worst of both worlds, which is where we were last season (the offside changes have moved us on slightly), but we now really need to move on to a solution where the tech is at the heart of it and change how things work to allow for that.