VAR

[Risso]

I've looked at a random selection of other clubs fan forums and one thing is for certain. Football fans have had a belly full of all the VAR nonsense. They always say that without the fans football is nothing and the whole not being able to celebrate a goal properly is turning fans against the sport in droves and the only place where we get to express our feelings about VAR is on our respective forums. There's no joined up thinking. So I'm wondering if it could it be possible to form an alliance of Premier League supporters to make ourselves heard. Something like "Football fans against VAR" I really feel like we need to make ourselves heard on this.

I find it odd that the Premier League are allowing PGMOL to damage their really valuable brand as they are doing.

[nick harper]

The only thing VAR has proved is that you can’t remove subjectivity from football. People will forever see incidents differently - tackles, handballs, red cards and no amount of VAR analysis is changing that as we have seen from one game to the next.

It should be used for fact based line decisions only - so offsides but even there the technology needs to be improved and a worldwide standard used. Other than that, get rid and let referees get on with it.

[Lastfootstamper]

Is the PL brand being damaged, though? I dreaded its introduction, it's proven to be every bit as shit and problematic as I hoped it wouldn't, and I'd be beyond elated to see the back of it. But that said, I find I only get worked up when I perceive an injustice against us. Couldn't give a remotest toss about what happens with other teams and other games. I'd even be in favour of keeping it if it just fucked everybody else over. I don't think the global audience will be turning off their tellies or buying fewer shirts any time soon because they think differently.

[The Edge]

The only thing VAR has proved is that you can’t remove subjectivity from football. People will forever see incidents differently - tackles, handballs, red cards and no amount of VAR analysis is changing that as we have seen from one game to the next.

It should be used for fact based line decisions only - so offsides but even there the technology needs to be improved and a worldwide standard used. Other than that, get rid and let referees get on with it.

I agree with your point about subjectivity. The Man Utd penalty absolutely proves that one. We even have some of our own fans on here who saw that footage as a correct decision. I look at the same footage and simply can't believe that people still think that's a pen. In my view (which I'm aware I'm repeating) VAR should only be used in an advisory capacity. When they see a debatable decision that leads to a goal or a penalty award Stockley Park simply tells the ref to go to the pitch side monitor and review it. And he watches it in normal speed but with the various angles to help him. No lines on screen and no slow mo. But even then it would be subjective as Stockley Park sometimes doesn't  review a decision even though it looks very debatable. Like when Harry McGuire had a Chelsea player in a full headlock recently which should have been a penalty but they didn't even look at it. Why didn't they? That's the million dollar question.

[chrisw1]

I still think it can work, but only with a serious re-think.

I agree with Edge, the control needs to be handed back to the on-field ref.  We need to get rid of this 'clear and obvious' bollocks and the ref and VAR should be able to have a grown up discussion - "I think he clipped his calf, do you think that's enough for a pen?" etc.  It is utter madness that with all this technology the onfield ref can't just take another look at the screen to check his decison without it looking like he's being frogmarched to the naughty step.

I think offside could be tidied up, but generally I'm in favour of technology checking it.  I'd prefer a fixed data point though based on, for example, trunk of upper body (ie chest/back) or furthest foot forward, rather than guesswork on shirt sleeve lines, togehter with wider lines to allow more margin for error. 

[The Edge]

I still think it can work, but only with a serious re-think.

I agree with Edge, the control needs to be handed back to the on-field ref.  We need to get rid of this 'clear and obvious' bollocks and the ref and VAR should be able to have a grown up discussion - "I think he clipped his calf, do you think that's enough for a pen?" etc.  It is utter madness that with all this technology the onfield ref can't just take another look at the screen to check his decison without it looking like he's being frogmarched to the naughty step.

I think offside could be tidied up, but generally I'm in favour of technology checking it.  I'd prefer a fixed data point though based on, for example, trunk of upper body (ie chest/back) or furthest foot forward, rather than guesswork on shirt sleeve lines, togehter with wider lines to allow more margin for error.

It's that margin of error which is crucial to me when it comes to offside decisions. The technology just isn't accurate enough to be giving an offside for millimetres and it's actually laughable that they think it is. No just let the ref look at the monitor and avail himself with the various angles in normal speed. No stupid bloody lines just the refs eyesight. If it's too close to call it's not offside. They will soon spot an obvious offside and won't have to feel like they've made a mistake. They would just be using better angles which they can't get at pitch level. They need to stop over complicating it because they're making themselves look very foolish and incompetent ar the moment.

[baddowvillans]

Dermot Gallaghers take on the penalty on Ref Watch was that another referee on another day might have given a different decision which I guess is as close as he will go to saying no penalty. 

He also expressed a view though that as Oliver was in a good position to see the incident there was  "no way VAR was EVER going over rule it   Surely this begs the question what IS the point of VAR then.  He felt Oliver had seen the clash of legs and felt that has been down to Luiz.  Perhaps however if he had been recommended to go to the monitor he would have had the chance to correct that decision.  VAR shoukd have given him that help

[The Edge]

Dermot Gallaghers take on the penalty on Ref Watch was that another referee on another day might have given a different decision which I guess is as close as he will go to saying no penalty. 

He also expressed a view though that as Oliver was in a good position to see the incident there was  "no way VAR was EVER going over rule it   Surely this begs the question what IS the point of VAR then.  He felt Oliver had seen the clash of legs and felt that has been down to Luiz.  Perhaps however if he had been recommended to go to the monitor he would have had the chance to correct that decision.  VAR shoukd have given him that help

It's the inconsistency that drives me mad. That and referee's/ex referee's covering each others arse. VAR having seen the angles that Michael Oliver didn't clearly had an obligation to at least inform the ref that he may have made a mistake. They are driving me mad this season with VAR. I was in favour of it when it was first mooted but now I've seen what a total fuck up they have made of it I will throw a party if they bin it. In my view the biggest problem with the whole thing is referees egos and that really boils my piss.

[danno]

I can't help but feel that if that had been in a Manchester derby (or even given the other way) the referee would have been asked to look at it again.

For me that is where a lot of the frustration comes from, the feeling that it increases or engenders unconscious biases rather than eliminates them.

[Risso]

It really should be very simple. 

Offsides - if you have to draw a line to the nearest tenth of a millimetre, then just about all football fans would rather the goal was given, even if against their team.  We wanted it for the 'clear and obvious errors' where somebody was 6 feet offside, not their shoulder blade being ahead of the defender's knee by a micron.

Everything else - should be there to point out where a ref has missed something, or where the ref himself is unsure of something he has seen.  In the former case, the VAR team can ask him to watch it on the monitor while discussing. In the latter, he goes to the monitor and does the same thing, then makes a decision within 60 seconds of viewing the replay.  If he can't in that time, it's not clear and obvious, so play on.

And it really should be as easy as that.

[Ian.]

It really should be very simple. 

Offsides - if you have to draw a line to the nearest tenth of a millimetre, then just about all football fans would rather the goal was given, even if against their team.  We wanted it for the 'clear and obvious errors' where somebody was 6 feet offside, not their shoulder blade being ahead of the defender's knee by a micron.

Everything else - should be there to point out where a ref has missed something, or where the ref himself is unsure of something he has seen.  In the former case, the VAR team can ask him to watch it on the monitor while discussing. In the latter, he goes to the monitor and does the same thing, then makes a decision within 60 seconds of viewing the replay.  If he can't in that time, it's not clear and obvious, so play on.

And it really should be as easy as that.

You make it sound so simple! If only common sense prevailed with these people.

[Pat Mustard]

Call me a Luddite, but I would honestly prefer to have none of it - now it is there we are just on a slippery slope to everything being reviewed and completely killing the flow of the game.  I would accept the fact that Man Utd get dodgy penalties every week if it was just the referee doing it - the fact that a third party is looking at it and still awarding them week after week is insufferable.  Add this to the biggest problem of all, that no-one can truly celebrate a goal now until the game has kicked off again, and we are losing a huge part of the soul of the game.

One final thing on the offside lines as well, it is a literal impossibility to judge calls to the degree they are being scrutinised now.  How are the VAR officials deciding when the ball is kicked?  Is it from the time the foot makes contact with the ball, or from the point at which it leaves?  When striking a football there will be an arc of contact between the foot and the ball that is measured in centimetres rather than millimetres, which means there must be a range of tolerance of a similar degree.  On top of this, when viewed on a side on camera it is impossible to distinguish the precise moment that the foot is in contact with the ball - how then, are offsides like the ones Watkins has seen given in the last few games even possible to decide upon?

I will put up with a lot of shit when it comes to football, but I honestly think VAR is the worst innovation in the history of the game and is massively damaging.  Teams will talk about the millions of pounds that can ride upon some of these decisions making total accuracy a necessity - the problem is, fundamentally change it in the way VAR has, and a lot of the reasons for those millions of pounds start to disappear.  Once fans are back in the grounds it will become really apparent how unpopular VAR is.

[frankmosswasmyuncle]

It really should be very simple. 

Offsides - if you have to draw a line to the nearest tenth of a millimetre, then just about all football fans would rather the goal was given, even if against their team.  We wanted it for the 'clear and obvious errors' where somebody was 6 feet offside, not their shoulder blade being ahead of the defender's knee by a micron.

Everything else - should be there to point out where a ref has missed something, or where the ref himself is unsure of something he has seen.  In the former case, the VAR team can ask him to watch it on the monitor while discussing. In the latter, he goes to the monitor and does the same thing, then makes a decision within 60 seconds of viewing the replay.  If he can't in that time, it's not clear and obvious, so play on.

And it really should be as easy as that.

This.
Please, just this.
It isn't complicated but they've made an absolutely fucking complex mess of the whole thing.

[Abbeyfealeavfc]

Call me a Luddite, but I would honestly prefer to have none of it - now it is there we are just on a slippery slope to everything being reviewed and completely killing the flow of the game.  I would accept the fact that Man Utd get dodgy penalties every week if it was just the referee doing it - the fact that a third party is looking at it and still awarding them week after week is insufferable.  Add this to the biggest problem of all, that no-one can truly celebrate a goal now until the game has kicked off again, and we are losing a huge part of the soul of the game.

One final thing on the offside lines as well, it is a literal impossibility to judge calls to the degree they are being scrutinised now.  How are the VAR officials deciding when the ball is kicked?  Is it from the time the foot makes contact with the ball, or from the point at which it leaves?  When striking a football there will be an arc of contact between the foot and the ball that is measured in centimetres rather than millimetres, which means there must be a range of tolerance of a similar degree.  On top of this, when viewed on a side on camera it is impossible to distinguish the precise moment that the foot is in contact with the ball - how then, are offsides like the ones Watkins has seen given in the last few games even possible to decide upon?

I will put up with a lot of shit when it comes to football, but I honestly think VAR is the worst innovation in the history of the game and is massively damaging.  Teams will talk about the millions of pounds that can ride upon some of these decisions making total accuracy a necessity - the problem is, fundamentally change it in the way VAR has, and a lot of the reasons for those millions of pounds start to disappear.  Once fans are back in the grounds it will become really apparent how unpopular VAR is.

Good post

[simboy]

It really should be very simple. 

Offsides - if you have to draw a line to the nearest tenth of a millimetre, then just about all football fans would rather the goal was given, even if against their team.  We wanted it for the 'clear and obvious errors' where somebody was 6 feet offside, not their shoulder blade being ahead of the defender's knee by a micron.

Everything else - should be there to point out where a ref has missed something, or where the ref himself is unsure of something he has seen.  In the former case, the VAR team can ask him to watch it on the monitor while discussing. In the latter, he goes to the monitor and does the same thing, then makes a decision within 60 seconds of viewing the replay.  If he can't in that time, it's not clear and obvious, so play on.

And it really should be as easy as that.

Difficulty is that the genii is out of the bottle. Pre VAR there would be endless reviews of "mistakes" on/off side and penalty calls [usually favouring the Sky Six] after the game. Scottish fans would have wanted VAR for Henry's hand ball, Be in no doubt I certainly would have wanted VAR to review if that dirty b*stard Vidic should have been sent off at Wembley ...   

VAR does work, the issue is the numpties interpreting it. It is the delay. I thought it worked quite well in the World Cup, conversely I was screaming at the TV to "just make a decision one way or the other" on the Watkins "goal" at West Ham. 5 minutes!

The off-side rule needs to be changed, perhaps to a foot or a head off side not the knee or shoulder ... no one deliberately "shoulders" the ball in the net, well not many people.