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Author Topic: The International Cricket Thread  (Read 256801 times)

Offline aev

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Re: The International Cricket Thread
« Reply #4950 on: February 26, 2021, 12:40:10 PM »
I think it massively matters.

We have a very small pool of spinners, and apart from Leach they hardly play / or get to bowl meaningful spells in 4 day cricket. Taunton / Ciderabad clearly does spin, and Northampton certainly used to. Spinners need overs under their belt to learn how to bowl, try variations and alter their lines and lengths. The best spinner in our domestic game is a South African, and until recently the second best was a New Zealander.

Our spinners seem to struggle to bowl a consistent line and length. Bess has fallen out of favour as he bowls too many lose deliveries, and this is one of the criticisms levelled at Moeen Ali. 

The knock on effect to this is also that he batsman hardly get to face any decent spinners on turning pitches, and so the lack of opportunity to hone and perfect their technique is clear to see when they face quality spinners on a turning wicket.

Offline paul_e

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Re: The International Cricket Thread
« Reply #4951 on: February 26, 2021, 01:19:54 PM »
I think it massively matters.

We have a very small pool of spinners, and apart from Leach they hardly play / or get to bowl meaningful spells in 4 day cricket. Taunton / Ciderabad clearly does spin, and Northampton certainly used to. Spinners need overs under their belt to learn how to bowl, try variations and alter their lines and lengths. The best spinner in our domestic game is a South African, and until recently the second best was a New Zealander.

Our spinners seem to struggle to bowl a consistent line and length. Bess has fallen out of favour as he bowls too many lose deliveries, and this is one of the criticisms levelled at Moeen Ali. 

The knock on effect to this is also that he batsman hardly get to face any decent spinners on turning pitches, and so the lack of opportunity to hone and perfect their technique is clear to see when they face quality spinners on a turning wicket.

none of that changes anything I wrote. In fact the bold bit backs it up. Even in prime conditions English pitches rarely offer a great deal, look at pretty much every home test series against sub-continent teams and their spinners have less impact. That means English spinners (and Australians and New Zealanders) rely on variations which leads to the exact problem you raise. Someone like Axar Patel, who has been destructive in the last 2 tests only needs very minor alterations to his action because he can trust the pitch to do a lot of the work for him so he is consistent as a result of the pitches he bowls on. That's why I think getting more players on those pitches would benefit us much more than changing the scheduling.

Aside from that the reason for the scheduling is because the one day formats get more fans and the summer months get more fans so it's a commercial requirement to match those up.

Offline aev

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Re: The International Cricket Thread
« Reply #4952 on: February 26, 2021, 01:32:23 PM »
I think it massively matters.

We have a very small pool of spinners, and apart from Leach they hardly play / or get to bowl meaningful spells in 4 day cricket. Taunton / Ciderabad clearly does spin, and Northampton certainly used to. Spinners need overs under their belt to learn how to bowl, try variations and alter their lines and lengths. The best spinner in our domestic game is a South African, and until recently the second best was a New Zealander.

Our spinners seem to struggle to bowl a consistent line and length. Bess has fallen out of favour as he bowls too many lose deliveries, and this is one of the criticisms levelled at Moeen Ali. 

The knock on effect to this is also that he batsman hardly get to face any decent spinners on turning pitches, and so the lack of opportunity to hone and perfect their technique is clear to see when they face quality spinners on a turning wicket.

none of that changes anything I wrote. In fact the bold bit backs it up. Even in prime conditions English pitches rarely offer a great deal, look at pretty much every home test series against sub-continent teams and their spinners have less impact. That means English spinners (and Australians and New Zealanders) rely on variations which leads to the exact problem you raise. Someone like Axar Patel, who has been destructive in the last 2 tests only needs very minor alterations to his action because he can trust the pitch to do a lot of the work for him so he is consistent as a result of the pitches he bowls on. That's why I think getting more players on those pitches would benefit us much more than changing the scheduling.

Aside from that the reason for the scheduling is because the one day formats get more fans and the summer months get more fans so it's a commercial requirement to match those up.

Why do you think "prime" pitches rarely offer much?

In fact, do you think it is a coincidence that Swann, Panesar and Leach (so 3 out of 4 of our first choice spinners) learnt to bowl at grounds that encouraged spin?


As for getting our spinners to go over and play in the Asian sub continent that isn't going to happen. We could however schedule more than 2 rounds of Championship cricket for July and August though.
« Last Edit: February 26, 2021, 01:42:33 PM by aev »

Offline paul_e

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Re: The International Cricket Thread
« Reply #4953 on: February 26, 2021, 02:27:25 PM »
I think it massively matters.

We have a very small pool of spinners, and apart from Leach they hardly play / or get to bowl meaningful spells in 4 day cricket. Taunton / Ciderabad clearly does spin, and Northampton certainly used to. Spinners need overs under their belt to learn how to bowl, try variations and alter their lines and lengths. The best spinner in our domestic game is a South African, and until recently the second best was a New Zealander.

Our spinners seem to struggle to bowl a consistent line and length. Bess has fallen out of favour as he bowls too many lose deliveries, and this is one of the criticisms levelled at Moeen Ali. 

The knock on effect to this is also that he batsman hardly get to face any decent spinners on turning pitches, and so the lack of opportunity to hone and perfect their technique is clear to see when they face quality spinners on a turning wicket.

none of that changes anything I wrote. In fact the bold bit backs it up. Even in prime conditions English pitches rarely offer a great deal, look at pretty much every home test series against sub-continent teams and their spinners have less impact. That means English spinners (and Australians and New Zealanders) rely on variations which leads to the exact problem you raise. Someone like Axar Patel, who has been destructive in the last 2 tests only needs very minor alterations to his action because he can trust the pitch to do a lot of the work for him so he is consistent as a result of the pitches he bowls on. That's why I think getting more players on those pitches would benefit us much more than changing the scheduling.

Aside from that the reason for the scheduling is because the one day formats get more fans and the summer months get more fans so it's a commercial requirement to match those up.

Why do you think "prime" pitches rarely offer much?

In fact, do you think it is a coincidence that Swann, Panesar and Leach (so 3 out of 4 of our first choice spinners) learnt to bowl at grounds that encouraged spin?

As for getting our spinners to go over and play in the Asian sub continent that isn't going to happen. We could however schedule more than 2 rounds of Championship cricket for July and August though.

but those players learned to spin despite a structure that you want to change and Leach has been one that has struggled, on this tour, to keep things tight with a consistent line.

Panesar was different and I'd go so far as to suggest he was unique for an English spinner in that he was better in sub-continent conditions than he was at home.

Swann was just world class, and is probably the best English spinner of all time (even if he is a twat), but lets not forget he only got into the team when he was in his late 20s, which is pretty standard for English spinners and has been for a long time.

All of this misses the point though, on a pitch like the last 2 games our batsmen wouldn't be better prepared if we played more 4 day games in July/August and our spinners wouldn't be more willing to bowl line and length because the conditions are still very different.

What your suggesting would improve the number of spinners playing in the county game, which would be great, but it wouldn't make poor displays like we saw less common and it would need to address the commercial issues that would come from it. I prefer the longer format but the games that are played in those months see significantly lower attendances than the t20 and OD games played at the same time, that is the factor driving the scheduling and can't be swept away by a desire to see a few English spinners around.

Offline aev

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Re: The International Cricket Thread
« Reply #4954 on: February 26, 2021, 02:59:53 PM »
I think it massively matters.

We have a very small pool of spinners, and apart from Leach they hardly play / or get to bowl meaningful spells in 4 day cricket. Taunton / Ciderabad clearly does spin, and Northampton certainly used to. Spinners need overs under their belt to learn how to bowl, try variations and alter their lines and lengths. The best spinner in our domestic game is a South African, and until recently the second best was a New Zealander.

Our spinners seem to struggle to bowl a consistent line and length. Bess has fallen out of favour as he bowls too many lose deliveries, and this is one of the criticisms levelled at Moeen Ali. 

The knock on effect to this is also that he batsman hardly get to face any decent spinners on turning pitches, and so the lack of opportunity to hone and perfect their technique is clear to see when they face quality spinners on a turning wicket.

none of that changes anything I wrote. In fact the bold bit backs it up. Even in prime conditions English pitches rarely offer a great deal, look at pretty much every home test series against sub-continent teams and their spinners have less impact. That means English spinners (and Australians and New Zealanders) rely on variations which leads to the exact problem you raise. Someone like Axar Patel, who has been destructive in the last 2 tests only needs very minor alterations to his action because he can trust the pitch to do a lot of the work for him so he is consistent as a result of the pitches he bowls on. That's why I think getting more players on those pitches would benefit us much more than changing the scheduling.

Aside from that the reason for the scheduling is because the one day formats get more fans and the summer months get more fans so it's a commercial requirement to match those up.

Why do you think "prime" pitches rarely offer much?

In fact, do you think it is a coincidence that Swann, Panesar and Leach (so 3 out of 4 of our first choice spinners) learnt to bowl at grounds that encouraged spin?

As for getting our spinners to go over and play in the Asian sub continent that isn't going to happen. We could however schedule more than 2 rounds of Championship cricket for July and August though.

but those players learned to spin despite a structure that you want to change and Leach has been one that has struggled, on this tour, to keep things tight with a consistent line.

Panesar was different and I'd go so far as to suggest he was unique for an English spinner in that he was better in sub-continent conditions than he was at home.

Swann was just world class, and is probably the best English spinner of all time (even if he is a twat), but lets not forget he only got into the team when he was in his late 20s, which is pretty standard for English spinners and has been for a long time.

All of this misses the point though, on a pitch like the last 2 games our batsmen wouldn't be better prepared if we played more 4 day games in July/August and our spinners wouldn't be more willing to bowl line and length because the conditions are still very different.

What your suggesting would improve the number of spinners playing in the county game, which would be great, but it wouldn't make poor displays like we saw less common and it would need to address the commercial issues that would come from it. I prefer the longer format but the games that are played in those months see significantly lower attendances than the t20 and OD games played at the same time, that is the factor driving the scheduling and can't be swept away by a desire to see a few English spinners around.

There was much more Championship cricket in the summer months than there is now, so the system that produced these spinners isn't the same one that we have now.

Playing on, and experiencing more turning pitches I think would improve the batsmen's skill set. It might have been the difference in getting to 200 in the first innings?

And as for spinners bowling line and length, one of Bess's issues is that the has struggled to land it in the same place, with too many 4 balls. I don't think it is a willingness issue, more an ability to do so at present.

It also is worth remembering that one of the spinners skills is an ability to tie an end and build pressure. You don't have to be turning it square to be useful. As Kohli said, 18 of the spinners wickets were with straight balls (think he was being a little provocative to be honest).

Regarding the OD, t20, Hundred etc I think anyone that follows cricket understands the commercial reasons for the prioritising of it, but quite frankly I would much rather Warwickshire won the County Championship than Birmingham (or whatever our one day name is) winning the T20. I would also much rather watch a summer of Test cricket than some meaningless 50 over games. I think there is room for both formats of the game, but I think that the balance is too far in favour of the shorter game.

Offline paul_e

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Re: The International Cricket Thread
« Reply #4955 on: February 26, 2021, 03:25:02 PM »
There was much more Championship cricket in the summer months than there is now, so the system that produced these spinners isn't the same one that we have now.

Playing on, and experiencing more turning pitches I think would improve the batsmen's skill set. It might have been the difference in getting to 200 in the first innings?

And as for spinners bowling line and length, one of Bess's issues is that the has struggled to land it in the same place, with too many 4 balls. I don't think it is a willingness issue, more an ability to do so at present.

It also is worth remembering that one of the spinners skills is an ability to tie an end and build pressure. You don't have to be turning it square to be useful. As Kohli said, 18 of the spinners wickets were with straight balls (think he was being a little provocative to be honest).

Regarding the OD, t20, Hundred etc I think anyone that follows cricket understands the commercial reasons for the prioritising of it, but quite frankly I would much rather Warwickshire won the County Championship than Birmingham (or whatever our one day name is) winning the T20. I would also much rather watch a summer of Test cricket than some meaningless 50 over games. I think there is room for both formats of the game, but I think that the balance is too far in favour of the shorter game.

There was more summer 4day cricket but almost every tour of India in my memory has led to the same questions of what we can do to be better facing spin and how we can produce a world class spinner so I don't see why changing it back would change that.

The Kohli thing about straight balls is highly misleading, that was a quirk of this specific match and something both teams struggled with.

I agree on preferring to see Warwickshire win the championship, as I said I much prefer that format, but if Birmingham Bears/Phoenix have to play during those key months to pay the bills so Warwickshire can compete then so be it.

I don't disagree with your idea I just think the decision was made that being competitive in all 3 formats and maximising revenues for the counties (and the ECB) was considered more important trying to improve conditions for spinners (and very quick seamers) and with us winning the ODI world cup and reaching the final of the t20 world cup the last time they ran it's a tough sell to suggest the choices were wrong.


All that said I think it's best we agree to disagree on this.

Offline aev

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Re: The International Cricket Thread
« Reply #4956 on: February 26, 2021, 03:40:32 PM »
Agree to disagree.

Anyway, another good article by the excellent Andy Bull.

https://www.theguardian.com/sport/2021/feb/25/england-two-day-thrashing-third-test-india-inquest

Online aj2k77

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Re: The International Cricket Thread
« Reply #4957 on: February 27, 2021, 12:27:14 PM »
Isn't it quite obvious that India shit themselves after the first test and went overboard and produced two alarmingly spinning wickets to make sure they didn't lose the series.

Offline UK Redsox

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Re: The International Cricket Thread
« Reply #4958 on: February 27, 2021, 12:57:43 PM »
Woakes heading home as part of the rotation policy.

Good to see him getting a rest after all those games he's played this winter.....oh....wait

Offline Gareth

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Re: The International Cricket Thread
« Reply #4959 on: February 27, 2021, 05:19:36 PM »
Isn't it quite obvious that India shit themselves after the first test and went overboard and produced two alarmingly spinning wickets to make sure they didn't lose the series.
& a road will be incoming for 4th test

Offline UK Redsox

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Re: The International Cricket Thread
« Reply #4960 on: March 01, 2021, 02:53:44 PM »
Update on the coaching set up for the England Men's team

https://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/cricket/56238318

Offline PaulWinch again

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Re: The International Cricket Thread
« Reply #4961 on: March 04, 2021, 07:03:35 AM »
Going well again.

Offline PaulWinch again

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Re: The International Cricket Thread
« Reply #4962 on: March 04, 2021, 07:07:55 AM »
Also one seamer on this pitch?

Offline aev

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Re: The International Cricket Thread
« Reply #4963 on: March 04, 2021, 07:12:04 AM »
Oh dear.

Offline PaulWinch again

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Re: The International Cricket Thread
« Reply #4964 on: March 04, 2021, 09:27:08 AM »
Appreciate India haven’t batted yet, but I think our current score looks well short.

 


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