The International Cricket Thread

[PaulWinch again]

Yeah, but let’s face it there wasn’t this conveyer belt of top class spinners back in the day either. Since the turn of the century we’ve only really had two properly high class spinners (Swann and Panesar). Even before that it was still fairly slim pickings. I don’t know the answer, although playing some cricket that requires spinners would clearly help. It feels like it needs a rethink.

[Risso]

How do spinners generally get on in the IPL Paul? Assuming they're useful because it's Indian pitches, you'd think that would be a reason for some English spinners to get good at the art?

[PaulWinch again]

Spinners can be massively effective in the IPL, Rashid Khan is one of the best players around. I think part of the problem with English spinners in India is even when you are bowling spin in England you typically need to bowl in a different way if you’re going to be successful in India. In England flight and drift is key, but India it’s more about firing it into the pitch. That’s why you’re seeing players like Hartley and Bashir selected - they see them as having the style that suits Indian pitches. But by definition they’re not really suited to English pitches, so they don’t really build up the experience they need. It’s a bit of a catch 22.

[paul_e]

Spinners can be massively effective in the IPL, Rashid Khan is one of the best players around. I think part of the problem with English spinners in India is even when you are bowling spin in England you typically need to bowl in a different way if you’re going to be successful in India. In England flight and drift is key, but India it’s more about firing it into the pitch. That’s why you’re seeing players like Hartley and Bashir selected - they see them as having the style that suits Indian pitches. But by definition they’re not really suited to English pitches, so they don’t really build up the experience they need. It’s a bit of a catch 22.

I'm not sure the IPL helps much though. The spinners that do well in the IPL are either already world class or naturally bowl flatter and quicker. You do hit on the problem though, the key to developing top level spinners is to get them to bowl a lot of deliveries as quickly as possible, and the only way to do that is to incentivise counties to play them even if they aren't taking as many wickets as they'd like.

Rehan Ahmed and Shaoib Bashir are both very promising because they're both getting regular gametime very young. So long as England don't ruin them by calling them up to carry water and let them play regular 4day cricket I can see both being very good in a few years.

I'm less certain of Hartley because he's quite a bit older and still looks a bit raw, if he does make it it'll be on a similar path to Swann where he's only really ready when he's already up around 30.

[Meanwood Villa]

Yeah, but let’s face it there wasn’t this conveyer belt of top class spinners back in the day either. Since the turn of the century we’ve only really had two properly high class spinners (Swann and Panesar). Even before that it was still fairly slim pickings. I don’t know the answer, although playing some cricket that requires spinners would clearly help. It feels like it needs a rethink.

Agreed, someone like Swann is very much the exception rather than the norm.

[tomd2103]

How do spinners generally get on in the IPL Paul? Assuming they're useful because it's Indian pitches, you'd think that would be a reason for some English spinners to get good at the art?

Spinners are a very useful commodity in T20 cricket (top ten in the world are usually pretty much all spin bowlers.  A lot of their wickets doe seem to come from catches in the deep though after batters have gone after them.

[Monty]

This is a murder.

[PaulWinch again]

We’ll be bowled out for less than 120 in the second innings. Reality is this isn’t a 350 pitch, but a lack of control and just poor bowling generally has given India way too many freebies.

[simboy]

We don't have the skill set to compete. Two spinners who average a touch over 29 and 39 respectively in first class cricket isn't going to threaten a decent Indian side. It's a tour to learn on and if we come out with one win in the 5 and a break through series from one of the youngsters it will be a positive, however brutal it all looks on day two of the first test.

I am forever the optimist!

[PaulWinch again]

I hate these type of Test matches, regardless of England being on the end of it. You know who’s winning it before both first innings are completed and it’s just about how long it takes to conclude.

For the next Test we have to have two seamers, because we need to be able to control the game better. We’d still be massively up against it, but it wouldn’t entirely impossible.

[olaftab]

Spinners can be massively effective in the IPL, Rashid Khan is one of the best players around. I think part of the problem with English spinners in India is even when you are bowling spin in England you typically need to bowl in a different way if you’re going to be successful in India. In England flight and drift is key, but India it’s more about firing it into the pitch. That’s why you’re seeing players like Hartley and Bashir selected - they see them as having the style that suits Indian pitches. But by definition they’re not really suited to English pitches, so they don’t really build up the experience they need. It’s a bit of a catch 22.

It's fingers v wrist issue.

[PaulWinch again]

I think that’s part of it, but not all of it. Typically English finger spinners just bowl in a different way to Indian finger spinners (flight vs drive).

[tomd2103]

We’ll be bowled out for less than 120 in the second innings. Reality is this isn’t a 350 pitch, but a lack of control and just poor bowling generally has given India way too many freebies.

Yep, would be surprised if it goes on any longer than tomorrow.  I am a big fan of the test format, but this is the first time I can feel just a touch of apathy creeping in. 

It's probably.because we knew it was going to be a tough tour, but I can't remember an England trst series where the build up has been so low-key.  Even down to the team flying in just 3 days before the test started, it seems almost am.inconvenience. 

You then look around the world and see horrible mis-matches being played out in virtually empty stadiums and you do have to.question how long this can go on for.

[paul_e]

On a pitch so heavily tailored to them and such an inexperienced attack I reckon taking this into the 4th innings is a decent showing. If one of Root, Biarstow or Stokes could've stuck around we might even have posted a decent target.

[tomd2103]

On a pitch so heavily tailored to them and such an inexperienced attack I reckon taking this into the 4th innings is a decent showing. If one of Root, Biarstow or Stokes could've stuck around we might even have posted a decent target.

Agree Paul, they've battled hard here which has bern good to see.