Dean Smith - Confirmed

[Diablo]

I watched the film Moneyball on Sunday for the first time (after someone I met said it was their favourite film). It made me think of Brentford and the old Liverpool set up pre Klopp (didn't they hire someone in to go down that route too?) and DS comment last week about increasing our younger player's market value. I'm assuming Brentford took their blueprint from Moneyball does anyone know if that is/was the case? Are their other examples of teams that have adopted this - besides the other club linked to Brentford? Or have lots of teams adopted this method with the availability of new technology and access to more stats?

Great film, and I strongly recommend you get hold of the book 'The Numbers Game', which goes into detail about how the explosive arrival of stats on everything has led to a more mathematical approach to football.

I feel like most teams in the modern game have adopted this approach now, but not quite to the extent of Moneyball.

Cheers Chipsticks thanks for the book recommendation. Yeah that was kind of my view too that more clubs were now using the stat approach but not to the Moneyball extent/degree which was why I threw the questions out there. Extremely interesting subject - can see the benefits, how it would be resisted and also the need for everyone to buy into it.

[KevinGage]

I watched the film Moneyball on Sunday for the first time (after someone I met said it was their favourite film). It made me think of Brentford and the old Liverpool set up pre Klopp (didn't they hire someone in to go down that route too?) and DS comment last week about increasing our younger player's market value. I'm assuming Brentford took their blueprint from Moneyball does anyone know if that is/was the case? Are their other examples of teams that have adopted this - besides the other club linked to Brentford? Or have lots of teams adopted this method with the availability of new technology and access to more stats?

You don't have to be a Moneyball disciple to know that signing younger players will (usually) mean there is more value re resale. Or there is a better chance of it, at least. Younger players can still stink the place out and might be hard to shift if they are on wages well in excess of their performance levels. 

What Moneyball did (and would be harder to replicate in football) is have players primarily known for one thing converted to another position based on stats.  This could often be older players and players deemed well past their best as well, so that aspect doesn't fit the Young and Hungry Version 2.0 model we look to be implementing.

Where Brentford have had some joy in recent seasons (as well as having a decent scouting network) is switching targets from the more traditional win/loss ratio and incentivising the amount of times they attack from certain areas of the pitch.

[footyskillz]

Yeah I feel the money ball movement and idea is something a majority of clubs take on .
But really they don't use the term money ball.

I do think a decent performance related pay structure and rewards for players based on team and individual achievement helps players .

There is much said for incentives in any work place or way of life too

[Ad@m]

Didn't Lambert allude to something similar when he came in and started signing the likes of Lowton, Westwood, Bowery, etc?  Young lower league players who had the rights "stats" to suggest they could kick on and make it in the big league.

Safe to say, it's not as easy as it might seem...

[footyskillz]

Yeah it's just buying players with sell on value.

Chelsea just buy anyone and anything and loan them .
I probably dislike their off field business more than any in premier league

 

[KevinGage]

He was after Cresswell as well, who has gone on to have a decent Premier League career.

The issue with that model is a player coming from League One Sheff Utd (as Lowton did at the time)  or Championship side Boro not only has to contend with the step up in football, but the expectations like a club at Villa.

We had been on a downward curve for a few years by then, but a club like Villa would still expect to win the majority of its home games. And meek, error-ridden football would get the crowd restless -as it often did.

Clubs like Burnley and Cardiff have won the lottery just by being in the topflight, so the fans will wear a few duff performances.

[Duncan Shaw]

Fair to say Lowton, Westwood, Joe Bennett, Benteke all done OK.  I prefer that model to Bruceball Old and Experienced.

[KevinGage]

McGrath would have been closer to a moneyball signing - a good player who becomes available at far less than his market value.

His off-field issues were well known. And with Yanited offering him early retirement due to his knees, the value dropped accordingly.

It didn't sound like GT had done a whole lot of research in all honesty. He watched him play an international match for Ireland in 89 and decided to go for him later that summer.

Jim Walker's training regime (or lack of) also came about after witnessing his early performances for Villa, so it doesn't sound like that aspect was a pre-conceived idea either.  And if he had continued to play central midfield (as he did in some of his early games)  we would have struggled to get a season out of him.

But if a similar deal became possible for one of the best centre halves in the world today, with what we know about sports science and the increase in stats available, it might help a club form a more rounded opinion about the risks involved.

[Diablo]

I watched the film Moneyball on Sunday for the first time (after someone I met said it was their favourite film). It made me think of Brentford and the old Liverpool set up pre Klopp (didn't they hire someone in to go down that route too?) and DS comment last week about increasing our younger player's market value. I'm assuming Brentford took their blueprint from Moneyball does anyone know if that is/was the case? Are their other examples of teams that have adopted this - besides the other club linked to Brentford? Or have lots of teams adopted this method with the availability of new technology and access to more stats?

Where Brentford have had some joy in recent seasons (as well as having a decent scouting network) is switching targets from the more traditional win/loss ratio and incentivising the amount of times they attack from certain areas of the pitch.

That's really interesting. I knew DS and the Brentford team were progressive but with an example like that (which is arguably quite radical) you can see why they would have that success, especially if their aim is to improve performance more regularly and in general (more shots/possession etc) and with that improvement gain better results (something that DS talked about as soon as he got here).

[PeterWithesShin]

*PWS to the thread please*

Or Dave!

I give up on it beyond saying Moneyball had absolutely nothing to do with moving young players on for a profit. Neither is it to do with  signing a player based on stats, which is sabermetrics.

[cdward]

I think Villa adopted the Moneyball philosophy from the wrong end, i.e  as the buying club, we pay inflated prices for players that were bought for peanuts and improved a little.
Scott Hogan....

[Ad@m]

*PWS to the thread please*

Or Dave!

I give up on it beyond saying Moneyball had absolutely nothing to do with moving young players on for a profit. Neither is it to do with  signing a player based on stats, which is sabermetrics.

I appreciate that Wikipedia isn't always right but...

Moneyball has entered baseball's lexicon; teams that value sabermetrics are often said to be playing "Moneyball."

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moneyball

[john e]

I’ve seen the moneyball film great film and sort of get the gist of it without fully understanding all the ramifications

always makes me laugh when people try and explain the exact science of it all as if it matters
Who gives a flying fuck

[PeterWithesShin]

I really can't be arsed, if people want to use a term incorrectly, then go ahead.

[Mister E]

Read the book.