Bullying

[The Edge]

Nothing I’ve ever read about MacDonald does anything to dispel the opinion I have that he’s a massive twat.

MacDonald should've gone after the Tottenham debacle.

Yeah I'd forget about that. An inexplicably malevolent team selection. Don't like the guy. And if it's proven he's a bully he should be fucked off forthwith.

[Stan Drew 01]

As already stated, bullying takes many forms, subliminal and overt being two examples.  You could call someone a nitwit and he could be offended and consider it bullying, I whereas you can call someone else a prick and they wouldn't bat an eyelid.

I too was bullied, I was a fat kid growing up, a very fat kid, of which I was constantly reminded several times a day, and there isn't a name I haven't been called, my surname never helped.

An example being what I endured during gym lessons, not only from the kids but from the gym teachers too; who thought it funny to make me do things I found impossible just for everyone to have a laugh at my struggles.  Humiliating.

Worse still was the showers after gym/games.  At that age, thirteenish, I had developed man breasts and showering was a nightmare, I would be surrounded by horny teenagers grabbing at them and some would have full-on erections jabbing into my arse.  I was constantly fighting them, and if anything good came out of that it was that it taught me how to look after myself.

I remember once getting into a fight with another fat kid because he had the nerve to call me fat!  Looking back now it must have been funny to the others to see two fat kids fighting over who was the fattest!  Talk about who's the tallest dwarf!

There was no point mentioning it at home, best not say anything or more shit would come my way.  As a result of all this I can still feel pretty insecure at times.

Our daughter did her university dissertation on bullying.  She knows nothing about what I've written here, nobody does, not even my wife.  My daughter chose the subject having suffered the loss of a former boyfriend to suicide who cited bullying as his reason in a note he left. 

I have chosen to put it on here in the hope that it may bring to peoples' notice just what extremes can happen when continually repeating something that others may find disconcerting.  There is no place for bullying anywhere and there's definitely no reason.  Sadly, there are too many arseholes in the world ready and willing to prey on what they perceive to be other peoples' weaknesses.

I told both our kids when I knew they were both going into teaching to choose their words very carefully when talking to their pupils as they may never know the profound effect those words could have.

Bravo and Respect

[Gregorys Boy]

Even without knowing the facts, you would think it should be standard to suspend the accused party while the case being investigated.  What is excusable is how the family of the boy was left in the dark about the process, and how unclear we all are on the process of changing the culture.  The club have handled this very badly. 

[ktvillan]

I'm not sure what I find most startling - the suggestion that there is a culture of bullying at Villa or that so many posters seem to think there is a "fine line" between motivation and bullying and can't seem to tell the difference.

Well for me it's quite obvious that, as with most things in life, there are grey areas where opinion, interpretation and context come into it.  Whilst some cases may be blatantly obvious, I don't see how it can always be as black and white as you seem to be suggesting.  There are far too many variables at play, including the sensitivity of the individuals involved, the power balance etc. 

[KevinGage]

I agree wholeheartedly with Risso's view that bullying is easy to define.  It can be hard to identify immediately because it comes in many forms, but it's all definable and none of it is excusable.  Verbal abuse and humiliation, as referred to in this article, is completely unacceptable and unnecessary in any workplace, and anyone using that as a tool to control or 'manage' is a bully. I can't see any grey area there whatsoever.

I'm afraid I'd disagree with that.

And that is not ignoring some of the posters on here and the first hand accounts they have shared. I'm sure they knew what they endured was bullying and it was bullying, by the sounds of it. 

But the school bully or the workplace bully who does it for kicks is a bit different to the stern, sergeant major-type. The first two aren't doing it for your benefit in any way, shape or form.  The latter might reason that he is. And a lot depends of the nature of the workplace environment you are going into. If it is a quiet, laid back office tasked with ordering stationary or whatever, behavior like that stands out a mile. But in a competitive football environment or even on a busy newspaper with deadlines, raised voices and out and out bollockings are not scarce.   I don't know K Mac personally. Maybe he is a nasty barsteward. And I have no particular affinity for him either way. The youth set up has been in dire need of a shake-up for a while. New ideas and a new approach.

But if we pot him, it has to be for the right reasons. We'd need more than what -on the surface- could be sour grapes from a young player who was let go.

[Stinkin_Thinkin]

Unfortunately I think bullying and football are deeply intertwined.
Almost every week on match of the day Shearer drops the phrase "he bullied their center halves all day long" as glowing endearment.
I think it was Pardew who got into trouble for using the word raped, I've never seen anyone take issue with Shearer's choice of words, I bet he'll use it tonight!

[Villa75]

Bullying?

You want to have a look at what some people post on this forum!

Mind you, as some will tell you on here, you don't have to put up with it. You can always do what the bullies want, and walk away/stop posting. Or, the other one, "Don't be so sensitive. Maybe this forum isn't for you".

Its funny though. The amount of people who have come on this thread to say "how terrible bullying is", and " it shouldn't be allowed ", then go off to attack people that disagree with them on other posts.

Hypocritical?

[Bad English]

Could we have some examples of what you see as bullying on this forum?

[Tayls_7]

Villa75 you are unequivocally the most aggressive, bombastic contributor on this site.

[class-of-82]

we certainly got bullied by millwall today

[curiousorange]

Bullying is not necessarily of the kicking, punching and shouting kind. It can be snidey, insidious and psychological. I was never bullied in the awful way some of the posters have outlined, but the abuse I did receive at school and outside affected me and continues to do so. I was a fat kid, and consequently this demolished my self esteem and self image. I was so used to having the piss ripped out of me that after I had a growth spurt, I recall going to the local shop and some little scrote saying, 'what are you looking at, you big-eared c***' and being overjoyed that he hadn't called me fat. That was all psychological. You can blow a hole in a mountain with dynamite, but it takes a river to make it a canyon.

I can't think of a single instance where you get an improved reaction by shouting and bawling at somebody and telling them they're shit. To be honest I would have thought MacDonald would have been drummed out of the club ages ago even without this kind of crap.

[Simon Page]

It looks to me like the Villa are no different to any other organisation when it comes to this sort of thing. Claim there's been an investigation but refuse to say exactly into what, by whom or what has been done. Have a bunch of confidentiality clauses and tell us everything is fine and lessons have been learned to ensure this will never happen again. See also Birmingham social services' dead kids division, Rotherham council ad nauseum, NHS trusts, media organisations. And don't worry, you can always cast doubt on the victim who either dressed provocatively, was upset they didn't get a promotion or couldn't hack that they weren't good enough to make it. If McDonald did nothing wrong the club should say so. If he did but it doesn't warrant further sanction, they should say so and what. If it does require sanction, ditto. Instead we get opaqueness and the standard bollocks.

To take just one of Villa's non-answers, how on earth is the number of players who have come through the academy relevant in all this? If there has been one or one hundred instances of wrong behaviour at the club it should be openly dealt with, not because we have a right to know but because every time an inquiry is held behind closed doors there is no deterrent to those who might do the same again. There is nothing for our club to feel good about in all this and no excuse for our actions since this latest issue was raised.

[in exile]

Could we have some examples of what you see as bullying on this forum?

I have a feeling you could be waiting a while

[The Charmer]

It looks to me like the Villa are no different to any other organisation when it comes to this sort of thing. Claim there's been an investigation but refuse to say exactly into what, by whom or what has been done. Have a bunch of confidentiality clauses and tell us everything is fine and lessons have been learned to ensure this will never happen again. See also Birmingham social services' dead kids division, Rotherham council ad nauseum, NHS trusts, media organisations. And don't worry, you can always cast doubt on the victim who either dressed provocatively, was upset they didn't get a promotion or couldn't hack that they weren't good enough to make it. If McDonald did nothing wrong the club should say so. If he did but it doesn't warrant further sanction, they should say so and what. If it does require sanction, ditto. Instead we get opaqueness and the standard bollocks.

To take just one of Villa's non-answers, how on earth is the number of players who have come through the academy relevant in all this? If there has been one or one hundred instances of wrong behaviour at the club it should be openly dealt with, not because we have a right to know but because every time an inquiry is held behind closed doors there is no deterrent to those who might do the same again. There is nothing for our club to feel good about in all this and no excuse for our actions since this latest issue was raised.

Excellent post Simon.
 
Not rocket science just a solid, common-sense approach to how a club of the size and reputation of Aston Villa should be handling this  -  both internally and externally.
I would love to get this post read-out when this is being discussed at a senior level and watch them look at each other and realise just how far short they seem to have fallen both in dealing with the issue and transparently reporting how they have dealt with it.

[Legion]

It looks to me like the Villa are no different to any other organisation when it comes to this sort of thing. Claim there's been an investigation but refuse to say exactly into what, by whom or what has been done. Have a bunch of confidentiality clauses and tell us everything is fine and lessons have been learned to ensure this will never happen again. See also Birmingham social services' dead kids division, Rotherham council ad nauseum, NHS trusts, media organisations. And don't worry, you can always cast doubt on the victim who either dressed provocatively, was upset they didn't get a promotion or couldn't hack that they weren't good enough to make it. If McDonald did nothing wrong the club should say so. If he did but it doesn't warrant further sanction, they should say so and what. If it does require sanction, ditto. Instead we get opaqueness and the standard bollocks.

To take just one of Villa's non-answers, how on earth is the number of players who have come through the academy relevant in all this? If there has been one or one hundred instances of wrong behaviour at the club it should be openly dealt with, not because we have a right to know but because every time an inquiry is held behind closed doors there is no deterrent to those who might do the same again. There is nothing for our club to feel good about in all this and no excuse for our actions since this latest issue was raised.

Excellent post.