Bullying

[Chico Hamilton III]

I understand that more allegations of bullying were made this week

[paul_e]

I already quoted that bit though, I honestly think that if the advice had been to sack him it would've happened so there must be more to it than there appears to be in that line.

I may be wrong, but for me if there's been 3 reviews and none of them have come to the conclusion that he should be sacked then it's probably not so clear cut.

I think you are right.

There is a sulphurous stench of the witch hunt in the mass media at the moment where people are being proved guilty before the evidence is presented. If Villa fans genuinely think that Kevin Mac has been retained despite evidence against him, we are in a very bad place indeed.

One good thing which might come out of all this is a reappraisal of these ubiquitous non-disclosure agreements.   

The bold bit is my issue here, as I've said I don't like him and think the club should've got rid of him on the basis that even though we have good players coming through many of them are mentally weak and unprepared or first team football.  However I don't like this idea that because someone has made an accusation you must be guilty and furthermore you must be shunned by society completely as your punishment.  Look at the Johnny Depp/harry potter thing for an example.

[Drummond]

"Bullying and harassment means any unwanted behaviour that makes someone feel intimidated, degraded, humiliated or offended. It is not necessarily always obvious or apparent to others, and may happen in the workplace without an employer's awareness."

That was lifted from the ACAS website.

"Examples of bullying / harassing behaviour could include:

- spreading malicious rumours, or insulting someone
- exclusion or victimisation
- unfair treatment
- deliberately undermining a competent worker by constant criticism."

So, a fairly broad definition but at the same time not exactly a pleasant scenario.

There may have been bullying but that it was seen not to be serious enough to warrant Gross Misconduct. Given what football is like though, you'd imagine that is almost irrelevant, people get paid off left, right and centre.

[Risso]

I already quoted that bit though, I honestly think that if the advice had been to sack him it would've happened so there must be more to it than there appears to be in that line.

I may be wrong, but for me if there's been 3 reviews and none of them have come to the conclusion that he should be sacked then it's probably not so clear cut.

I think you are right.

There is a sulphurous stench of the witch hunt in the mass media at the moment where people are being proved guilty before the evidence is presented. If Villa fans genuinely think that Kevin Mac has been retained despite evidence against him, we are in a very bad place indeed.

One good thing which might come out of all this is a reappraisal of these ubiquitous non-disclosure agreements.   

The bold bit is my issue here, as I've said I don't like him and think the club should've got rid of him on the basis that even though we have good players coming through many of them are mentally weak and unprepared or first team football.  However I don't like this idea that because someone has made an accusation you must be guilty and furthermore you must be shunned by society completely as your punishment.  Look at the Johnny Depp/harry potter thing for an example.

But it isn't just that there's been an accusation.  There's been an enquiry and that enquiry found that his actions amounted to bullying.  I don't think that he should be shunned by society, but there appear to be ample grounds for him not being employed as a coach.

[amfy]

I had a friend whose family all support Villa and her son was with the Villa academy from age 8.

By the time he was 9 they had moved him to Blues because they said the atmosphere at Villa was horrible and they say he is loads happier at Blues despite still being an avid Villa fan.

[paul_e]

I already quoted that bit though, I honestly think that if the advice had been to sack him it would've happened so there must be more to it than there appears to be in that line.

I may be wrong, but for me if there's been 3 reviews and none of them have come to the conclusion that he should be sacked then it's probably not so clear cut.

I think you are right.

There is a sulphurous stench of the witch hunt in the mass media at the moment where people are being proved guilty before the evidence is presented. If Villa fans genuinely think that Kevin Mac has been retained despite evidence against him, we are in a very bad place indeed.

One good thing which might come out of all this is a reappraisal of these ubiquitous non-disclosure agreements.   

The bold bit is my issue here, as I've said I don't like him and think the club should've got rid of him on the basis that even though we have good players coming through many of them are mentally weak and unprepared or first team football.  However I don't like this idea that because someone has made an accusation you must be guilty and furthermore you must be shunned by society completely as your punishment.  Look at the Johnny Depp/harry potter thing for an example.

But it isn't just that there's been an accusation.  There's been an enquiry and that enquiry found that his actions amounted to bullying.  I don't think that he should be shunned by society, but there appear to be ample grounds for him not being employed as a coach.

That's just it though, we don't know if there are.

[Risso]

He IS guilty of bullying though, that has been established.  You were querying that.

[paul_e]

He IS guilty of bullying though, that has been established.  You were querying that.

I really wasn't and if it came across as that then it wasn't intended, I even quoted the bit where the PL findings state as much.  What I'm querying is that given what we know it looks like a fairly clear cut case to get rid of him but we haven't done that so there must be something more that we don't know.  Hence you said there's ample grounds for him not being a coach but it appears that the club, PL and FA all disagree with that.

Earlier you said that the latter 2 would have no right to suggest we sack him, and that's true, but with everything that's gone on in the last year or so I'd be amazed if they'd found the clear evidence you'd need and didn't tell everyone that they agreed with the dad that he's a scumbag but they can't force the club to take action, putting al lthe pressure on the club to 'do the right thing'.

I may be wrong but I just don't see how the club could keep him and avoid a shitstorm (at some point) unless they had a solid reason, and I don't think that will be as slim as "he's been a good servant".

[Richard E]

In the day job I hate cases involving "bullying." The phrase is so nebulous and covers such a multitude of sins ranging from serious harassment to quite reasonably being told to do your job properly that it is almost meaningless.

[Malandro]

Nothing I’ve ever read about MacDonald does anything to dispel the opinion I have that he’s a massive twat.

A twat, bully and he sabotaged Garde's start in the job.
Get rid. He's even worse than Black, in my opinion.

[cheltenhamlion]

In the day job I hate cases involving "bullying." The phrase is so nebulous and covers such a multitude of sins ranging from serious harassment to quite reasonably being told to do your job properly that it is almost meaningless.

To the annoying thread! Showdown with that lazy bastard at work today who is now dangling a constructive dismissal argument.

[dave shelley]

As already stated, bullying takes many forms, subliminal and overt being two examples.  You could call someone a nitwit and he could be offended and consider it bullying, whereas you can call someone else a prick and they wouldn't bat an eyelid.

I too was bullied, I was a fat kid growing up, a very fat kid, of which I was constantly reminded several times a day, and there isn't a name I haven't been called, my surname never helped.

An example being what I endured during gym lessons, not only from the kids but from the gym teachers too; who thought it funny to make me do things I found impossible just for everyone to have a laugh at my struggles.  Humiliating.

Worse still was the showers after gym/games.  At that age, thirteenish, I had developed man breasts and showering was a nightmare, I would be surrounded by horny teenagers grabbing at them and some would have full-on erections jabbing into my arse.  I was constantly fighting them, and if anything good came out of that it was that it taught me how to look after myself.

I remember once getting into a fight with another fat kid because he had the nerve to call me fat!  Looking back now it must have been funny to the others to see two fat kids fighting over who was the fattest!  Talk about who's the tallest dwarf!

There was no point mentioning it at home, best not say anything or more shit would come my way.  As a result of all this I can still feel pretty insecure at times.

Our daughter did her university dissertation on bullying.  She knows nothing about what I've written here, nobody does, not even my wife.  My daughter chose the subject having suffered the loss of a former boyfriend to suicide who cited bullying as his reason in a note he left. 

I have chosen to put it on here in the hope that it may bring to peoples' notice just what extremes can happen when continually repeating something that others may find disconcerting.  There is no place for bullying anywhere and there's definitely no reason.  Sadly, there are too many arseholes in the world ready and willing to prey on what they perceive to be other peoples' weaknesses.

I told both our kids when I knew they were both going into teaching to choose their words very carefully when talking to their pupils as they may never know the profound effect those words could have.   

[Legion]

That is such a shame to hear. I was also bullied extensively whilst at school for many years and also in the workplace, especially just recently. I am totally against it and bring my girls up appropriately as well as having anti-bullying strategies inherent at the core of my teaching.

[McGraths Dry Cleaning]

I'm not sure what I find most startling - the suggestion that there is a culture of bullying at Villa or that so many posters seem to think there is a "fine line" between motivation and bullying and can't seem to tell the difference.

[Risso]

As already stated, bullying takes many forms, subliminal and overt being two examples.  You could call someone a nitwit and he could be offended and consider it bullying, whereas you can call someone else a prick and they wouldn't bat an eyelid.

I too was bullied, I was a fat kid growing up, a very fat kid, of which I was constantly reminded several times a day, and there isn't a name I haven't been called, my surname never helped.

An example being what I endured during gym lessons, not only from the kids but from the gym teachers too; who thought it funny to make me do things I found impossible just for everyone to have a laugh at my struggles.  Humiliating.

Worse still was the showers after gym/games.  At that age, thirteenish, I had developed man breasts and showering was a nightmare, I would be surrounded by horny teenagers grabbing at them and some would have full-on erections jabbing into my arse.  I was constantly fighting them, and if anything good came out of that it was that it taught me how to look after myself.

I remember once getting into a fight with another fat kid because he had the nerve to call me fat!  Looking back now it must have been funny to the others to see two fat kids fighting over who was the fattest!  Talk about who's the tallest dwarf!

There was no point mentioning it at home, best not say anything or more shit would come my way.  As a result of all this I can still feel pretty insecure at times.

Our daughter did her university dissertation on bullying.  She knows nothing about what I've written here, nobody does, not even my wife.  My daughter chose the subject having suffered the loss of a former boyfriend to suicide who cited bullying as his reason in a note he left. 

I have chosen to put it on here in the hope that it may bring to peoples' notice just what extremes can happen when continually repeating something that others may find disconcerting.  There is no place for bullying anywhere and there's definitely no reason.  Sadly, there are too many arseholes in the world ready and willing to prey on what they perceive to be other peoples' weaknesses.

I told both our kids when I knew they were both going into teaching to choose their words very carefully when talking to their pupils as they may never know the profound effect those words could have.   

I'm sorry to read that Dave, nobody should have to endure anything like that.