Bruce Sacked at last (now official)

[ozzjim]

This is a tough one now though. Lets say the worst really is the worst, and we are selling Grealish and Kodjia this summer for example. We go and appoint Dean Smith, who we would mostly be fairly happy with. He takes a while to get going, can't sign anyone other than the odd loan to help and is struggling in lower to mid table come November, do you sack him too?

If there was a chance of keeping our better players it would be an easier call to can Bruce. As it is, he has got a good team spirit, Grealish may actually be more likely to stay with him here, as will Chester, and he is most likely to have us, even with a deplete squad, in the play off fight IMO. Now we are not going to get automatic with anyone, but the lottery of the playoffs give us a chance. Boro, West Brom, Swansea and Stoke really should be all in the top 6. After that it is wide open, and we still have a squad capable. Losing Grealish and Kodjia would hurt, but we I trust Bruce to find 3-4 loans to plug gaps and get us going more than most, he is good at that bit.

Changing him is a gamble, if we do it, I am happy enough, if we don't, while it means negative football and boring times ahead, there is a logic behind it so I won't be crying too much.

[SamTheMouse]

I really hope he goes. I like him as a bloke, but as a manager he sends teams out not to lose. That's fine if you have a poor side, but when you've comfortably outspent every other team in a division packed to the rafters with absolute dross, you should be going out to beat the shit out of the opposition in every single game.

The galling thing is, every team we played last season was eminently beatable. We had the quality and showed it occasionally. We even gave Barçahampton an absolute spanking.

But our players too often looked like they thought our opponents were better, with the result that they ended up looking, well, better. That's the opposite of what a good manager is supposed to do.

Bruce has been in charge of underdogs his whole career. It's time we got someone in who's used to winning.

[footyskillz]

..... As it is, he has got a good team spirit, Grealish may actually be more likely to stay with him here, as will Chester,......

Great point you make which I hadn't considered as such or though I have in terms of the continuity..

That team spirit and players know him and 'play' for him. I suppose that's a positive and moving him on would mean whole new management team and adapting to players.

[Richard E]

The team spirit thing is being overstated. If we scored first, we won. How many times did we come from behind to win?

[sickbeggar]

This is a tough one now though. Lets say the worst really is the worst, and we are selling Grealish and Kodjia this summer for example. We go and appoint Dean Smith, who we would mostly be fairly happy with. He takes a while to get going, can't sign anyone other than the odd loan to help and is struggling in lower to mid table come November, do you sack him too?

If there was a chance of keeping our better players it would be an easier call to can Bruce. As it is, he has got a good team spirit, Grealish may actually be more likely to stay with him here, as will Chester, and he is most likely to have us, even with a deplete squad, in the play off fight IMO. Now we are not going to get automatic with anyone, but the lottery of the playoffs give us a chance. Boro, West Brom, Swansea and Stoke really should be all in the top 6. After that it is wide open, and we still have a squad capable. Losing Grealish and Kodjia would hurt, but we I trust Bruce to find 3-4 loans to plug gaps and get us going more than most, he is good at that bit.

Changing him is a gamble, if we do it, I am happy enough, if we don't, while it means negative football and boring times ahead, there is a logic behind it so I won't be crying too much.

That's the big problem for me. The club would really have to back him and hammer home the fact that we're rebuilding and things might be rough when he was appointed, and not when we have an iffy period in November.

The downside to that is it gives the players a get-out clause and lowers expectations for them as well.

[footyskillz]

The team spirit thing is being overstated. If we scored first, we won. How many times did we come from behind to win?

Good point. Score first and win.

One could say its the quality of players and squad or the tactics and change of tempos for debate against questioning spirit.

But exactly how many times do you think teams come from behind and win matches.
It's not so common over any regular round of fixtures let alone season.

I know it's football but as a whole very few teams win from being a goal down its a myth and I like to highlight it.

The villa only conceded first  4 times at home all season so we never win from behind at Villa Park because we were rarely behind and as its a general rare occurrence to teams to turn around matches then it its low.

Twice we got draws from being behind so it's actually in 23 matches 4 times conceding first only 2 times did we lose.

A fantastic home record meant we often lead or just outright won.
Wolves never won a match when they went behind at home and neither did Sunderland or Barnsley who were relegated.

And away from home we had to chase matches 13 times from being a goal down drew twice and won twice.
Same as Fulham who went behind 8 times but only ever won twice.

Overall as may expect the relegation battlers
Barnsley Bolton reading and Sunderland were particularly shocking and never once won a match home or away once they conceded

Overall for villa then :
So I make that 17 matches overall where opposition took lead and 2 times we came back to win. (2 times we drew)

Perspective overall
Wolves once in 10
Cardiff 3 times in 15
Fulham 4 times in 15
Derby 2 times in 15
Boro 3 times in 23
Burton & Birmingham 2 times in 27.

And finally for the record Preston were the best team overall at winning matches once 1st  losing. 5 times that happened.

Qpr most home winning comebacks 4 times in 11 matches from 23.
Preston most away winning comebacks 3 from 10 matches (only 1 more than villa)

Haven't looked at draws however point remains on winning matches scoring first is a great advantage.

[Sexual Ealing]

Smith wouldn't be the 'promotion expert' option so I don't think there would be anyone saying he shouldn't be given time.

[Sexual Ealing]

The team spirit thing is being overstated. If we scored first, we won. How many times did we come from behind to win?

Good point. Score first and win.

One could say its the quality of players and squad or the tactics and change of tempos for debate against questioning spirit.

But exactly how many times do you think teams come from behind and win matches.
It's not so common over any regular round of fixtures let alone season.

I know it's football but as a whole very few teams win from being a goal down its a myth and I like to highlight it.

The villa only conceded first  4 times at home all season so we never win from behind at Villa Park because we were rarely behind and as its a general rare occurrence to teams to turn around matches then it its low.

Twice we got draws from being behind so it's actually in 23 matches 4 times conceding first only 2 times did we lose.

A fantastic home record meant we often lead or just outright won.
Wolves never won a match when they went behind at home and neither did Sunderland or Barnsley who were relegated.

And away from home we had to chase matches 13 times from being a goal down drew twice and won twice.
Same as Fulham who went behind 8 times but only ever won twice.

Overall as may expect the relegation battlers
Barnsley Bolton reading and Sunderland were particularly shocking and never once won a match home or away once they conceded

Overall for villa then :
So I make that 17 matches overall where opposition took lead and 2 times we came back to win. (2 times we drew)

Perspective overall
Wolves once in 10
Cardiff 3 times in 15
Fulham 4 times in 15
Derby 2 times in 15
Boro 3 times in 23
Burton & Birmingham 2 times in 27.

And finally for the record Preston were the best team overall at winning matches once 1st  losing. 5 times that happened.

Qpr most home winning comebacks 4 times in 11 matches from 23.
Preston most away winning comebacks 3 from 10 matches (only 1 more than villa)

Haven't looked at draws however point remains on winning matches scoring first is a great advantage.

This is an enlightening post.

[paul_e]

I thinkthe bigger problem there isn't the failure to come from behind, it's the fact that the attempt to do so, normally, involved doing nothing until 75 minutes and then abandoning midfield and throwing on as many strikers as possible.

[john e]

if Grealish goes it will be because we have an offer of 30-40 mil for him
if that kind of bid comes in it comes with wages to match

he could probably double maybe triple his wage so I don't think team spirit will be playing a major part in that decision should we receive a high bid for him

[Ads]

We took point from behind at Bristol, Leeds, Preston and Derby and came back to win at QPR and Sheffield Wednesday.

It was key games away from home at Cardiff, Fulham etc that did for us.

[PeterWithesShin]

We took point from behind at Bristol, Leeds, Preston and Derby and came back to win at QPR and Sheffield Wednesday.

It was key games away from home at Cardiff, Fulham etc that did for us.

We won 2-0 at Preston. And lost 2-0 at Derby.

[footyskillz]

I thinkthe bigger problem there isn't the failure to come from behind, it's the fact that the attempt to do so, normally, involved doing nothing until 75 minutes and then abandoning midfield and throwing on as many strikers as possible.

Not many teams do come from behind to win matches though . It must be a mental thing with players and teams as much as its anything else.

Cup matches are one offs and there can be win all costs approach however cautious managers would rather play safe and more attack minded managers go for it.

To me its not coincidence that arsene Wenger continuously won fa cups that was due to style of play. Just as much as hammering v Barca and bayern over years in champs league.

Similarly Liverpool getting to champions league final this season. Their attitude of manager and player allowed greater expression and risk being rewarded. But in league matches against organised teams and being mentally prepared for every match to be consistent super tough unless you get that momentum

Comebacks happen far more in the cup and the fa cup gets labelled magic cos of it.

It's psychology at end of day. That's why end of season matches can be 5-4 Spurs v Leicester

Crowds can inspire and lift players as much as their own abilities at times. Cheering on regardless the score (not so British I know), would have players think hang on a second!! We can still win this.

It's all about support. Players being vocal with each other (less so) and do feel team spirit in all clubs at pro level has dwindled.

Huddersfield are inspiration with their manager as they noted it was a season and just had to keep going as was Leicester when they won the league and also stayed up. Burnley were so fascinating because they eventually slowed down like Watford as one they couldn't sustain and two they had over achieved expectation so didn't drive on.

Leicester in recent years and Liverpool in that championship league final were amazing examples of team spirit.

Momentum is a beautiful thing villa had it for a while and then were complacent they thought quality was enough. Fulham showed as did Burnley a few seasons ago in rising to champship.

[TopDeck113]

I reckon Bruce will be out of a job by the end of October...



...If he goes to Leeds this summer.

[ozzjim]

It was not so much our inability to come from behind, more our tendancy to chuck in really shit performances against lesser sides when we had the chance to kick on. Had we won the QPR and Norwich games, then we would have been in the fight on the last day to go up.