Steve Bruce - officially confirmed (as Sheffield Wednesday boss)

[john e]

I still don't believe all the answers lie in what formation we play

[chrisw1]

I still don't believe all the answers lie in what formation we play

Got to start somewhere.  We need the right formation to get the right players on the pitch and unfortunately at the moment I don't think Elphick is one of them.  For me that means whatever we do has to start with 4 at the back.

[markeeeebeeee2005]

I still don't believe all the answers lie in what formation we play

I don't think they do either, the instructions that sit alongside those formations are also very important.

Mindset is crucial, a defensive mindset very easily turns into a defeatist mindset - a self perpetuating cycle.

[john e]

I still don't believe all the answers lie in what formation we play

Got to start somewhere.  We need the right formation to get the right players on the pitch and unfortunately at the moment I don't think Elphick is one of them.  For me that means whatever we do has to start with 4 at the back.

theres always a player we don't like, most of the others are now playing in the prem, but that's as maybe
with the money spent and the players we have we should be playing far more fluid attacking football than we are,
that wont change with a formation it will change with confidence and a different attitude to the game

[markeeeebeeee2005]

Both will have to change.

[pbavfckuwait]

I think those saying about it not being the formation are not totally incorrect, but what Bruce has done is fall back onto a defensive mindset and tryed to shoehorn extra defenders into the team to solidify, but as someone stated a defensive line up can soon turn into a defeatist mindset. I know our goals for does not show it, but I do believe given some freedom and encouraged to play at a higher tempo, bring in someone like RHM wide, Green or Adomah other side and have a go. Naff all to lose this season now.

[SoccerHQ]

surely if you play 3-5-2 at home the wing backs have to be bacuna and amavi

We tried that v Newcastle did we not.....

[Monty]

Let's call a spade a spade. It's 5-3-2, not 3-5-2.

Depends whether you have the ball. Did Mourinho's Chelsea play 4-5-1 or 4-3-3?

4-3-3. Regardless of whether they had the ball or where they were on the pitch, Duff and Robben were in the team to play as wide attackers not midfielders.

Hutton and Taylor are not in the team to do anything but defend, as they can't do anything apart from defend.

That is just not true - every player in a Mourinho team is in it to defend, and only about half are in it to attack. When Chelsea didn't have the ball Robben and Duff tucked in, dropped back, and got rigidly in a (quite deep) position. They then led the counters, but they had a big defensive role to play.

Hutton and Taylor, I agree, can't do much beyond defending. That doesn't mean they weren't asked to. Which would show the manager has problems other than the formation.

[Gareth]

Like Gareth above, my meat and two veg reading of Ipswich was that we played 8-2.  The 8 being a disorganised rabble.

Like I say, I know nothing about football.

Me neither Brian :-)

[Gareth]

I've thought for a long time that playing for Villa is too easy, the ire always gets focused on the manager with the players only getting the occasional tutting & low frequency booing at half time when they've been bobbins.  I'd love to hear 'attack, attack, attack' screamed around the ground when we go into that negative, bottle job mentality like we did on Saturday, it wasn't terrible, we were more than competitive in the game but we completely bottled trying to win it....players & manager have to realise particularly at Villa Park that risk averse Pulis football should never be tolerated

[themossman]

This 442 quote. Not that I'm doubting it but I think I've only read it on here. Does anyone have a link to the original article/quote? Context might help as otherwise that combined with his transfer dealings and his recent formations suggest he has lost it.

[dave.woodhall]

This 442 quote. Not that I'm doubting it but I think I've only read it on here. Does anyone have a link to the original article/quote? Context might help as otherwise that combined with his transfer dealings and his recent formations suggest he has lost it.

He said it at a meeting with supporters.

[Lobsterboy]

I know I am only rehashing a lot of what has been said before but it is staggering that a manager of Bruce's calibre and experience thinks that we have the personnel to play 3-5-2 and that those personnel include Baker and Elphick as ball playing centre halves and Hutton and Taylor wing backs

Utter madness

[markeeeebeeee2005]

I'm not sure why he needs to state his position on formations and how long we will be playing using them. He's paid to pick formations that work for each game. I don't know why he feels he needs to tell us that now we're playing 532 or now we're playing 442 or 451.

He just needs to pick winning formations, tactics and players.

I think we are making a big deal about it (me included) because he is, and also of course that we lose week in week out.

I don't like 532, but probably would be thinking about something else if he hadn't drawn attention to it and if we could score a goal/ win a game.

[paul_e]

I don't like 532 in the main because, whilst it doesn't have to be defensive, it easily becomes that and turns into a flat 5 and 3 defensive midfielders in front.  If we had a manager that I trusted to really push the wing backs up (like Chelsea for example) and get at least 1 of the midfielders into the box then I'd accept it and I'd see the value but when you have a naturally conservative manager and a formation that lends itself so easily to being ultra-defensive you're just going to get what we've seen the last couple of games.  Yes we have a bit of quality in midfield and up front which will mean we can create a few chances and if we took them we might get some points but I find the whole 'you lot defend and hold position, you 2-3 try to win us the game' the lowest of barrel-scrapping management you get.

Now to contradict myself somewhat my broader view is that tactics are mainly about how you defend.  Getting the right people in the right places to stop the opposition from playing.  If that means 5 at the back then that's ok but only if you're trying to get the ball back and have plans to do it.  Just putting numbers in there and letting things happen doesn't work for me.  I've said for years that the real key to the success Pep Guardiola has had isn't his attacking play, it's all about how his teams turn over possession.  Man City are taking a little longer to adapt to his 'way' than he'd like but the fundamental of it is that defending isn't about stopping the opposition from playing, it's about letting them draw themselves out of position and then winning the ball and exploiting the gaps they've made for you.  His Barca team get all the plaudits because they were so devastating in attack but his Bayern team was the one where the defensive part just worked perfectly, if you watch a lot of their games teams resorted to long balls because they were scared to commit players into attacks, having that sort of control over your opposition is what tactics should be about.  This is all about working with the players so they all understand what the aim is and how they fit into it and it becomes prescribed.

Attacking can also be prescribed and for some things it makes sense to do just that, such as working on set plays (not set pieces, different thing) defining how you counter attack from a defensive corner.  To use rugby terminology this is 'first phase' play and can cover pretty much any transition from defence to attack or set pieces because in both cases you can work on them in training with everyone knowing when and where to run, etc.  After that attacking play falls into 2 categories for me, individual brilliance and team cohesion.  At Villa we have spent lots of money trying to buy the first of those but no one has tried to work with the squad to develop the 2nd and unfortunately the 2nd one is far more important.

Ramble over, tl;dr version - I'm not a fan of the formation but if Bruce and his coaches worked with the players, explained what they're supposed to do and had a plan for how to win the ball and how to use it once we had it I wouldn't give a shit what the numbers were.