Steve Bruce - officially confirmed (as Sheffield Wednesday boss)

[Simon Page]

Where's the defence of Westwood? I don't know anyone who thinks he's right for us - or us for him for that matter. Where we differ is in how much we're willing to blame him for but I don't see anyone saying he's good enough for what we need.

I assume he came off against Cardiff because he wasn't doing the job required of him. Whether that was because he refused or wasn't up to it or having a particularly bad game is guess work. Unless every substitution based on individual performance standard is a Bartleby.

Jimbo thinks it is down to laziness and the 'gravy train', whereas others may think it is down to poor managers/coaches or it could be due to bad influences.

The problem is, managers and coaches who've worked with him all say the complete opposite of what Jimbo opines. They don't say that about some of our other players, so it's not just offering a Pravda. Meanwhile, I think everyone agrees he's not been good enough and is highly unlikely to be. It might be he can play at this level in an atmosphere or team more conducive to his abilities, but that's immaterial. He shouldn't be here because it's not going to happen for him or us. It's astonishing given the players we've had and still have who actively show uninterest that Westwood gets singled out as hoodwinking us, even more so when there is more than enough to have a go at without questioning his commitment.

[chrisw1]

I don't understand the defense of Westwood, and in my opinion Jimbo is spot on in his summing up of him.  He's an utterly anonymous little coward who actively goes out of his way to avoid getting involved.

It's not defence of Westwood, it's the ridiculous, mellow dramatic hyperbole that is in question.  You need to read more than one page to understand the discussion.

[Jimbo]

I'm not saying Westwood is lazy. Let me say that again, Westwood isn't lazy. I think this has more to do with responsibility than laziness. Westwood, it seems, will shy away from certain aspects of the game that show him up for the poor footballer he is.

Elsewhere we've spoken about Alan Hutton, who, for all his shortcomings is a player, he will stand up and be counted (when he isn't sprawled on the floor in the wake of a winger).

The same just can't be said of Westwood.

[Jimbo]

I don't understand the defense of Westwood, and in my opinion Jimbo is spot on in his summing up of him.  He's an utterly anonymous little coward who actively goes out of his way to avoid getting involved.

It's not defence of Westwood, it's the ridiculous, mellow dramatic hyperbole that is in question.  You need to read more than one page to understand the discussion.

Is it mellow or is it dramatic? Make your mind up, chrisw1.

[chrisw1]

I don't understand the defense of Westwood, and in my opinion Jimbo is spot on in his summing up of him.  He's an utterly anonymous little coward who actively goes out of his way to avoid getting involved.

It's not defence of Westwood, it's the ridiculous, mellow dramatic hyperbole that is in question.  You need to read more than one page to understand the discussion.

Is it mellow or is it dramatic? Make your mind up, chrisw1.

melodramatic.
Well spotted. 

[Hoppo]

Your all going round in circles.. Westwood is shit at being Carrick, shit at hiding, shit at pointing, shit at getting his shirt dirty, shit at being lazy, shit at stealing a living, in fact he is just Wank.

[Rudy65]

Except Michael Carrick gets involved with all the things Bartleby Westwood would rather not do.

It's the use of the word Bartleby where you fall down. Westwood doesn't say "I'd prefer not to" do the job we need him to do. In fact, he's the polar opposite as every manager and coach he's worked with will tell you. It's the thing I've never grasped about the vitriol towards Westwood. He's not proved himself up to the task we want and need from him. Isn't that enough? Why the need to make out he's conning us, or lazy, or feckless, or refusing to be better, or any of the other things lobbed at him by various and numerous critics?

I think the Carrick example is a good one because there's a player who was always thought of as not good enough for Manchester United and England, told he couldn't do the job he was meant to do, derided in comparison with the player he was meant to replace, yet utterly trusted and respected by teammates and coaches alike. The differences are Carrick is a better player than Westwood but he was also allowed to develop at a club doing well and with much better players around him. If you'd have seen him at Blues early in his career he looked like a little boy lost, devoid of confidence and scared of his own shadow. Amazing what can happen to a player with good management, good players around him and good vibes at the club.

Don't get me wrong, it would be best for everyone - not least the player himself - if Westwood moved on, but someone who hides, shirks responsibility and has Bartlebyesque qualities? Not even close.

But that is exactly what he does. He makes no effort to improve his workrate, tackling or dead ball skills and he has been here four years. He isnt small either but isnt agressive in the tackle and if he is physically lacking why not get fitter in the gym and start getting stuck in a bit more. He does hide and shirk responsibility by being continually happy not to be involved and improve his shortcomings.  In summary he is in the comfort zone described elsewhere which is worthy of the criticism he is getting elsehwere

[themossman]

Elsewhere we've spoken about Alan Hutton, who, for all his shortcomings is a player, he will stand up and be counted (when he isn't sprawled on the floor in the wake of a winger).

So we’re differentiating between our poor players based on whether they are crap in a running round like a two footed tackling keystone cop way, or a touching the ball three times a game way? If so, I suggest we’re missing the point, which is that we are still having to field poor and unconfident players because our squad is so unbalanced.

It is clear to me that Westwood has gone from being a mediocre player to a poor one this season. He needs to be hooked. Is it his fault that we spent all that money in the summer on chancers like RMC but underspent so criminally on the most key position on the pitch? Or that Bruce has persisted in chucking him in, when the fans are baying for his blood, while Tshibola waits it out in the stiffs for absolutely no reason? Or that Veretout, the most obvious cover, simply decided not to play for us in the second division? We talk a lot about the need to take young players out of the firing line. Westwood, whilst not particularly young any more, has clearly needed to be taken out of the firing line for months but has been let down by Bruce’s selection errors and our lack of squad options.

I don’t know the bloke from Adam, but given the procession of total pillocks we’ve had at the club for the last few years I can’t get too angry with a limited player who has never disrespected the club and whose biggest crime is being too meek.

[Sexual Ealing]

Could I get a PM please, paulie?

[sid1964]

SE - Did you get your radiators to work?

[JJ-AV]

His confidence is completely shot and he's been terrible for so much longer than he was promising in a Villa shirt that a move is best all-round. He's neat and tidy so I can see why managers pick him, but come match day he's cowardly and he's costing us. I'd have Bacuna or Tish in there every day.

He's probably a decent Championship player for another team, but not for us. Too many years of failure.

[andyaston]

Has this changed from a Bruce to Westwood subject all of a sudden?

[themossman]

That's a fair question. So do you think Westwood should be sold?

[kippaxvilla2]

I don't understand the defense of Westwood, and in my opinion Jimbo is spot on in his summing up of him.  He's an utterly anonymous little coward who actively goes out of his way to avoid getting involved.

I couldn't put it any better myself. After the weekend, and the stats thrown around, I will no longer take anyone defending him seriously. Out.

Agreed.

The comment earlier that it is isn't his fault he's no good (paraphrasing).  So he has managed to hoodwink to use a word every single football coach he has ever encountered and somehow jammed his way to being signed off as a professional footballer?  Or could it be that, in fact, yes he does all the right things and makes all the right noises in training only to turn in absolutely God awful, anonymous, non-accountable performances week in, week out.  Either atrocious, or atrocious dereliction of duty in a vital area.  Either way.  Get rid.

[Jimbo]

Has this changed from a Bruce to Westwood subject all of a sudden?

It's the Bruce thread but the Westwood thread's gone missing.

Anybody want to tap this one in?