Derby County v Aston Villa Post-Match Thread

[passitsideways]

Fair enough, but I disagree completely. Westwood controlled the first half. Gardner was largely a complete liability and I've got no idea what he did at Forest to get such rave reviews.

On the evidence of last 4-5 games I agree ref Gardner, the shot today is the only noteworthy thing!  Really wanted him to grab his chance but he hasn't shown.

What I would say with Westwood is that in a central three with Jedinak & Tshibola I think he might have a role to play as the link player to the forward players as he is a neat & tidy passer. 

Westwood's passing is another myth. He's a neat and tidy passer when it's an easy pass backwards or sideways, the kind of pass a scarecrow could master.

He does and did today, your memory is just being selective. He could be more daring and he doesn't play first-time enough for me which slows us down, but a progressive forward pass doesn't have to be a through ball or a brilliant diagonal out wide, and he does enough of that simple stuff where he's simply moving it to Ayew or Grealish further up the pitch. Then again, I remember Michael Carrick played the most forward passes in Europe one season (no, I'm not saying Westwood is anywhere near his level) and people were still accusing him of only making the safe side/back passes, so I guess that's just the nature of things.

I'm not sure about that. I really don't get this 'he moves the ball' stuff. He's a footballer. That's what he's a millionaire for. Yet he doesn't even do that very well.

Everything else that's required of him, he frequently fails to do - set pieces (floaty garbage), tackling (powderpuff), protecting the defence (points at something), shooting (ha ha ha ha), kicking a football properly (still waiting), etc. etc.

Passing the ball sideways to a very deep Ayew is not an incisive forward pass. And as I've said before, I think there was a reason why Ayew played so deep. It's because he can actually kick and keep possession of a football, which, as RDM would have known, is what Westwood and Gardner both struggle with. 

We're in the Championship now. Westwood looks ordinary here at best, virtually anonymous at other times. We're mid table. If we want to get out of this division, the likes of Westwood and Gardner just aren't good enough.

Westwood especially is one of the reasons we set up camp at the bottom of the Premier League for five seasons. And he's one of the reasons we're not getting the results now. I know, I know, early days and all that. But we need better, RDM knows it, and he's bought it.

No more settling for mediocre nothingness.

If only there was a pass map to show how far his forward passes went! Oh wait, there is: http://championship.squawka.com/english-football-league-championship/20-08-2016/derby-vs-avilla/matches

There's plenty of forward passes there where he's moved it into the final third.

Through four games, he's completed more passes, at a higher percentage than anyone else. If that's not keeping possession, I don't know what it is; the fact that the passing hasn't been all that penetrating relates to a completely different concept. Also, If it was so easy to move the ball as you suggest, England wouldn't be so fucking shit at it game after game, and those players are paid a sight more than Westwood are.

I've never suggested that Westwood is anything more than a so-so player with a limited set of skills, and I'd hope that Tshibola and Jedinak can establish themselves as our starting two going forward. That doesn't mean people should be so ridiculously over-the-top in assessing his contributions.

[saunders_heroes]

Statistics can be manipulated to make anyone look half decent, but where are Westwood's assists, his goals, his last ditch tackles, his shots on target, great set pieces etc etc? He just doesn't deliver, and the sooner he's gone the better.

[PaulWinch again]

Statistics can be manipulated to make anyone look half decent, but where are Westwood's assists, his goals, his last ditch tackles, his shots on target, great set pieces etc etc? He just doesn't deliver, and the sooner he's gone the better.

Yes, but those statistics might not be relevant when it comes to his role. I'm sure Michael Carrick doesn't have amazing assist, goals and last ditch tackle stats. His role is to distribute the ball to players who will have good attacking stats. That's the role Westwood has. He might not be brilliant, but he's nowhere near as bad as he's made out to be.

[LukeJames]

Well as is commonly said. The table doesn't lie.

In August it does.

[Toronto Villa]

The table means nothing at the moment. It's important to remember that the vast majority of the sides in the league won't spend significantly more than they have already because they simply don't have the resources. And it is also likely that sides like us and Newcastle will have the ability to spend on one player what most sides will spend collectively. The gap in spending power is significant. This might not be immediately apparent but over the course of a long season the sides who have deepest resources and are well run should emerge from the pack.

[Jimbo]

Yes, a lot of sideways passing, or offloading the ball to team-mates, some of whom were in front of him, as I saw with my own eyes. Nothing incisive. And look at his tackling stats. Three tackles, one successful.

I just had a look at Westwood's wiki page. This is how he describes himself: "someone who stays out of the limelight and keeps it simple, retaining the ball and laying it off to team-mates." That's a euphemism for 'a very limited lower-league footballer who can't believe his luck at being signed by Aston Villa, and hopes nobody notices how limited he is.' 

Even Crewe manager Steve Davis is quoted as saying it was 'a bit of a surprise' when Villa came in for him. Westwood is a product of our 'young and hungry' fallacy which was an abject disaster. He should never have been a Villa player.

[Chris Smith]

Statistics can be manipulated to make anyone look half decent, but where are Westwood's assists, his goals, his last ditch tackles, his shots on target, great set pieces etc etc? He just doesn't deliver, and the sooner he's gone the better.

Surely his job is to keep things ticking over, to always be available for a pass and to keep the ball moving to get the more creative players into the game. If we had anyone better at that role then he would be replaced but at the moment I am not sure we do and it would be a waste to ask one of the more creative players to do that job.

[Nunkin1965]

Well as is commonly said. The table doesn't lie and mid table is the perfect position for us at the mo. We're totally average. A shame Gestede got injured as he's been making progress but at the moment God we're ordinary as a team.

But thats an improvement and it will turn round but I'm not sure it's going to be this season.

After only 4 games of course the table lies. It is like trying to predict the winner of a marathon after the first mile.

It will take a few more weeks for this league to settle down. There is still business to be done in the window for a lot of teams and then time for those players to become integrated, I recon it will be October/November before we get an idea of where we stand. As it is we have been competitive in all of the games we have played and our defence in particular is looking strong which gives me cause to think that the manager knows what he is doing.

Sorry. Working today so I've not really had time to have a good read of opinions but the fact is at the moment after 4 games we're nothing special. Thats not an opinion I hold overall and I'm certainly not coming to the conclusion that were not going anywhere. Di Matteo is doing a good job so far. Let's face it we've arguably gambled with 1 signing so far (Gollini). Compare that to last season when we virtually gambled on a whole new team! Looking back that was complete madness.

[aj2k77]

I just took a look at Westwoods passing map against Derby that someone linked too, it proves exactly what he does with the ball, nothing, half the passes look sideways, the only ones around the area are just knocked wide, 1 succesful pass inside the box. He's cack.

[Risso]

Statistics can be manipulated to make anyone look half decent, but where are Westwood's assists, his goals, his last ditch tackles, his shots on target, great set pieces etc etc? He just doesn't deliver, and the sooner he's gone the better.

Surely his job is to keep things ticking over, to always be available for a pass and to keep the ball moving to get the more creative players into the game. If we had anyone better at that role then he would be replaced but at the moment I am not sure we do and it would be a waste to ask one of the more creative players to do that job.

If we are to go up, I don't think we can afford for such a limited player like Westwood to be a regular.  We need goals, assists and protection of the back four from the midfield, and he does none of those things.  When we're behind or drawing, we need people with drive and energy to get forward.  When we need to protect what we've got, we need rugged and physical players to get stuck in.  Again, he isn't capable of these things, and slipping five yard passes to people on its own is far from being good enough.  It'll be only OK if we want to finish mid table.  We've had 4 years of seeing that he isn't good enough at Premier League level, and he isn't good enough for a Championship side chasing promotion.  Ideally I'd like to see him sold if we can get another midfielder in.

[passitsideways]

Yes, a lot of sideways passing, or offloading the ball to team-mates, some of whom were in front of him, as I saw with my own eyes. Nothing incisive. And look at his tackling stats. Three tackles, one successful.

I just had a look at Westwood's wiki page. This is how he describes himself: "someone who stays out of the limelight and keeps it simple, retaining the ball and laying it off to team-mates." That's a euphemism for 'a very limited lower-league footballer who can't believe his luck at being signed by Aston Villa, and hopes nobody notices how limited he is.' 

Even Crewe manager Steve Davis is quoted as saying it was 'a bit of a surprise' when Villa came in for him. Westwood is a product of our 'young and hungry' fallacy which was an abject disaster. He should never have been a Villa player.

At this point, you're just being obtuse. So congrats.

[UK Redsox]

Was Tshibola out injured yesterday?

Yes, he came off against 'uddersfield

[Jimbo]

Yes, a lot of sideways passing, or offloading the ball to team-mates, some of whom were in front of him, as I saw with my own eyes. Nothing incisive. And look at his tackling stats. Three tackles, one successful.

I just had a look at Westwood's wiki page. This is how he describes himself: "someone who stays out of the limelight and keeps it simple, retaining the ball and laying it off to team-mates." That's a euphemism for 'a very limited lower-league footballer who can't believe his luck at being signed by Aston Villa, and hopes nobody notices how limited he is.' 

Even Crewe manager Steve Davis is quoted as saying it was 'a bit of a surprise' when Villa came in for him. Westwood is a product of our 'young and hungry' fallacy which was an abject disaster. He should never have been a Villa player.

At this point, you're just being obtuse. So congrats.

Sure. Your user name aptly gives you away, Ash, so we'll end it there.

[olaftab]

We need a finished article Tony Daley type signing. Not sure who would foot the bill, but a pacey winger who can get behind and deliver, or cut in and shoot is what we're lacking.

Ravel is on his way!

[tomd2103]

Statistics can be manipulated to make anyone look half decent, but where are Westwood's assists, his goals, his last ditch tackles, his shots on target, great set pieces etc etc? He just doesn't deliver, and the sooner he's gone the better.

Wouldn't mind him being a bench option and am hoping Jedinak replaces him.  Disappears when the pressure comes on and hardly heard him and Gardner mentioned in the second half yesterday and I thought Will Hughes looked far better than the pair of them.