Eric Black

[paul_e]

There's no point carrying on, you're determined, for some reason, to nothing wrong in anything Black has done, I see little from him to suggest he's been worth his salary so lets agree to leave it there.

Oh and Okore is the best central defender in the squad based on the fact that any time our defence has looked remotely solid in the last 2 years he's been in it, bar a short run with Vlaar and Senderos (who could both have been great defenders if they weren't made of glass) who aren't here.  If you're going to champion Lescott then I suggest we go and get Terry, he's a knob who's best days are long behind him but he's been England captain.

Okore has been poor this season. They all have. Have a gander at the league table. And not sure where you've seen me champion Lescott. I've even got that ability to read between the lines and, nope, still not there.

You won't let it go then ...

Lets simplify things, Leicester are top of the league so they must have the best players in every position and we're bottom so everyone in our squad must be shit so if a temporary member of staff pisses a few of them off and they leave it'll be no loss, is that about what you're wanting to see?

I personally don't prescribe to the idea that all our players must be shit, it's a ridiculously shallow way to judge the squad, so you have to judge them on merit.  Doing that for defenders is always difficult but there are a few options:

Stats don't mean everything but here they have Okore as the 3rd best player this season (I'd agree with them on 4 of the top 5, not sure how Richards snuck in there though).


Results in games he's involved in should be less controversial so here's the list I make that 26 conceded in 14 (1.857 per game) against a team performance of 82 in 42 at 1.95 per game.  Not a great improvement but definitely above average.  And he's badly affected by the awful performances against Man city in the cup and Liverpool, aside from those 2 games the defensive record with him in the team is much better.


You can also add the fact that the only period where we looked capable of staying up was in January where he was a regular.

The Lescott bit was tongue-in-cheek because you said you could call him the best based on England caps.  I know you backed away from that afterwards but it's a worryingly naive approach to deciding the worth of a player.


What has Black done to deserve your defence of him?
Had us playing good football - no.
Stopped us matching our worst ever run of defeats - no.
Given the fans something to show that we can come straight back - no.
Called out the players who are roundly idenitified as being the source of the problems - 1 of them, the rest have been regulars in the team.
Kept the players we might want to keep happy? - no, not just Okore, he's also sidelined Veretout, Traore and Grealish and taken Ayew off twice when he's been our best player.


So what positives has he done?


I don't really care about the situation he came into because my opinion is that you could've had poll for the replacement on here and we'd have been no worse off for the run-in.  I don't expect him to win every game but I do expect him to try to win 1 of them and I don't think he's done that in his first 5 attempts.

[Villa in Denmark]

There's no point carrying on, you're determined, for some reason, to nothing wrong in anything Black has done, I see little from him to suggest he's been worth his salary so lets agree to leave it there.

Oh and Okore is the best central defender in the squad based on the fact that any time our defence has looked remotely solid in the last 2 years he's been in it, bar a short run with Vlaar and Senderos (who could both have been great defenders if they weren't made of glass) who aren't here.  If you're going to champion Lescott then I suggest we go and get Terry, he's a knob who's best days are long behind him but he's been England captain.

Okore has been poor this season. They all have. Have a gander at the league table. And not sure where you've seen me champion Lescott. I've even got that ability to read between the lines and, nope, still not there.

Even within "they've all been poor," there's a graduation of degrees of shit. Okore's tended to be part of the less shit partnerships, either with Clark or Lescott, which given how most people view those 2 is some going. In addition he has the added quality of looking like and playing like he gives a shit.

The whole thing stems from him wanting to play, and frankly if I was him and got dropped for Richards I'd be pissed off too.

My guess is that Okore has asked what's going on or what he needs to do to get back in the team. Black's told him something inspiring along the lines "all you need to know is which seat you're sitting in on the bench and if you don't like it don't bother coming."

No player worth his salt is going to say they're happy to sit on the bench so either Okore makes himself look like another freeloader and says he's happy with being on the bench, or he says he's not happy being on the bench and gets thrown to the U21s even if he follows up with "but I'll have to lump it," because Eric is well hard.

Given the comments from Okore's agent at the start of April where he basically called the club an unprofessional shambles as no one at the club could even say who he should talk to about plans and scenarios for next year, I suspect that the club want to take whatever they can and this has now developed into a situation where Okore has basically been told to piss off and don't rock the boat and we'll help you on your way out.

There's no mention of the club fining him, which suggests he's not actually refused to do anything. The PFA aren't involved and his agent isn't jumping up and down because there's no loss of earnings and having received one kick in the bollocks for saying you want to play, why risk another when you've only got to smile and wave for 2 more weeks and then there's a good chance you're out of madhouse, or at worst, getting to know whoever the new manager is.

Basically, Black's taken the same approach he used on Gabby to kick him out of harms way and used it to deal with a player wanting to get on the pitch, one that went out of his way to play whilst injured last season. Way to go Eric.

[David_Nab]

I'm not privy to Okores comments I'm the Danish media but the basics seems to be he was unhappy at not playing ...so he is banished from squad .

Black then decides to play 3 cbs so if argument had happened he would likely now be picked ..

Whole thing just seems dodgy to me , just another in a long line of incidents which makes us look like a fucking Sunday league operation

[peter w]

I won't let it go quoted by someone who seems similarly smitten. Marvellous. And as for those stats  Paul e you agree with the stats but also don't agree with the stats? Only the one that fits your viewpoint clearly. And it's a bit of a stretch to consider 1.85 against 1.95 as a sound argument for Okore.

As it stands he was dropped for poor performances. It happens. He hasn't been our worst defender this season by any means but he had gone through a poor game or two so he was dropped. He can sulk all he wants. He can bang down the manager's door if he wants. But the way to respond professionally is to get down to hard work on the training field. The very same place Remi Garde was criticising player's attitudes so the problems are deep and not superficial. Nor a symptom of Eric Black.

Okore has no-one else to blame for this predicament if Black's version is correct. I just can't see what Black would hope to gain if it weren't.

[mr underhill]

Black can't gain a point. Not one.

[Villa in Denmark]

I won't let it go quoted by someone who seems similarly smitten. Marvellous. And as for those stats  Paul e you agree with the stats but also don't agree with the stats? Only the one that fits your viewpoint clearly. And it's a bit of a stretch to consider 1.85 against 1.95 as a sound argument for Okore.

As it stands he was dropped for poor performances. It happens. He hasn't been our worst defender this season by any means but he had gone through a poor game or two so he was dropped. He can sulk all he wants. He can bang down the manager's door if he wants. But the way to respond professionally is to get down to hard work on the training field. The very same place Remi Garde was criticising player's attitudes so the problems are deep and not superficial. Nor a symptom of Eric Black.

Okore has no-one else to blame for this predicament if Black's version is correct. I just can't see what Black would hope to gain if it weren't.

Your second paragraph, that's exactly what he's done through 3 years now. This is someone who turned down a move to Chelsea 6 months before he came to us because he wouldn't get the playing time he wanted.

Your last sentence is the most pertinent one.  No one knows if Black's version is correct. And as for what he's got to gain? You're correct the answer is nothing. 

I'd say that the answer lies in incompetence and or a nervous determination to prove the "don't f##k with me" reputation he'd started to grow with Gabby.  He's taken what he's done to Gabby, who's been causing problems everywhere to everyone except the opposition, to remove a genuine problem from the squad and repeated it with Okore in a situation that didn't need it.  I'll bet quite a lot that this has escalated from a fairly innocuous what I have I got to do to get in the team/how come  Richards is in front of me, which Black has interpreted as challenge to his authority.

[brian green]

Indeed VID.  Black has assumed a responsibility to quell disloyalty and lack of commitment in the squad when his far more important responsibility is damage limitation.  The disaster was already upon us when Black took charge.  The disruptive forces sown in the dressing room going back seasons had finally taken their toll.  Agbonlahor had pressed the self destruct button months ago.  Kicking him in the arse was like a cat sinking it's claws into an already killed rat.  Okore and possibly Traore have been completely unnecessarily alienated.  I do not accept the stamp out the bolshy behaviour defence.

When Ayew got his red card against West Ham it was stupid, reckless and immature behaviour.  It was widely reported that he went on to say in the heat of the moment that Villa were done for and he did not want to play.  Stuff like that happens in all areas of life.  Things are said that are better left unsaid.  I do not doubt that Okore has spoken out of turn to Black but it is part of the manager's job to defuse potential problems not exacerbate them.

Black is like the senior surviving officer of an army in retreat.  His duty is to get his men to fall back and regroup with the minimum of further casualties.  Okore to me looks like the classic Napoleonic tactic pour encouragez les autres.

[paul_e]

I won't let it go quoted by someone who seems similarly smitten. Marvellous. And as for those stats  Paul e you agree with the stats but also don't agree with the stats? Only the one that fits your viewpoint clearly. And it's a bit of a stretch to consider 1.85 against 1.95 as a sound argument for Okore.

As it stands he was dropped for poor performances. It happens. He hasn't been our worst defender this season by any means but he had gone through a poor game or two so he was dropped. He can sulk all he wants. He can bang down the manager's door if he wants. But the way to respond professionally is to get down to hard work on the training field. The very same place Remi Garde was criticising player's attitudes so the problems are deep and not superficial. Nor a symptom of Eric Black.

Okore has no-one else to blame for this predicament if Black's version is correct. I just can't see what Black would hope to gain if it weren't.

Er, what?  I asked to leave you it, you refused, should I just ignore you now?

The stats thing i have no idea what you're trying to say but what I said is that I know that using stats to justify things is controversial but that his put him where I'd expect based on what I've seen, However I'm surprised that Richards is as high as he is.  There's no contradiction there.  The goals against thing, it's not a huge difference but it is there, you'd only ignore that completely if you were trying to justify him being dropped.

From there:
- You have no evidence that he's sulking.
- You have no evidence that he isn't training hard.
- You have no evidence that he has an attitude problem but use a comment about Garde to suggest it.
- Okore has no one but himself to blame 'if Black's version is correct' - do you really not see the problem with that statement?
- You can't see what he has to gain, would be good if I'd already pointed that out 2-3 times, oh wait.

Stop making shit up to let you support Black, we don't know anything like enough about what happened to be able to do that and can only judge on the evidence that a player who we could really do with having available isn't and with no fines or PFA action it's impossible to decide who is in the wrong which in itself suggests to me that Black has hugely over-reacted.

[Tom_Mc9?]

I struggle to muster any feelings for or against Eric Black. He's come in to a team that is already relegated (albeit he had to wait a few games for it to become mathematically possible) and has got the team playing okay at times but mostly different degrees of bad, much like his two predecessors. He'll go once the season ends and will be mostly forgotten about within a few years.

I think as soon as the season ends/we get new owners in/a new manager in/a combination of all those events we can start to look to the future, rather than the merits (or lack of) of a caretaker manager presiding over the worst group of 'professional' footballers we've had the misfortune to pay (!) to go and watch.

[peter w]

Paul e - if you quote me directly then I shall reply. If you don't like it then simply don't visit the Eric Black thread where it is quite obvious I will be mounting a defence based on circumstances rather than ability. Within the spirit of a public forum I shall not ask you to leave it or let it go but will welcome your response and will respond within the spirit of debate and discussion.

As it is the evidence I am using is that Okore has been packed off to the kids. That hasn't happened because he's been playing well or averaging 7 out of 10, or even because Black doesn't fancy him as a player. I do not know the reasons why he's not in the first-team squad but I am using logic to take me to the point that I have arrived at. I haven't made anything up anywhere as I have said that I do not know what has gone on and I assume not one person here does. I back Black in this though, if Okore's attitude is what have had him dropped from the first-team squad and unlike what appears to be the majority here on this point, I am not using what I don't know against Black. You seem to be.

[Villa in Denmark]

Paul e - if you quote me directly then I shall reply. If you don't like it then simply don't visit the Eric Black thread where it is quite obvious I will be mounting a defence based on circumstances rather than ability. Within the spirit of a public forum I shall not ask you to leave it or let it go but will welcome your response and will respond within the spirit of debate and discussion.

As it is the evidence I am using is that Okore has been packed off to the kids. That hasn't happened because he's been playing well or averaging 7 out of 10, or even because Black doesn't fancy him as a player. I do not know the reasons why he's not in the first-team squad but I am using logic to take me to the point that I have arrived at. I haven't made anything up anywhere as I have said that I do not know what has gone on and I assume not one person here does. I back Black in this though, if Okore's attitude is what have had him dropped from the first-team squad and unlike what appears to be the majority here on this point, I am not using what I don't know against Black. You seem to be.

Butting in, if you're using logic and evidence, were talking about a bloke who's only ever said he's wanted to play, who risked his knee going big time again last season to get us through to season's end, who turned down a big money move to Chelsea because he was worried about how much game time he was going to get .

How do you get a bloke like that to suddenly be saying he's not prepared to sit on the bench, and 3 days later still saying it, unless there's some seriously shit management going on.

And if you want stats, 11 out of measly 16 points have been won in the 12 games Okore has played.  Probably not enough to keep us up, but infinitely better than the other 24 games. 2/3 of the points earned in 1/3 of the games played.

[Risso]

Well done to all, this thread is now officially the most tedious thing about this season, even allowing for relegation and 11 defeats on the spin!

[Villa in Denmark]

Well done to all, this thread is now officially the most tedious thing about this season, even allowing for relegation and 11 defeats on the spin!

It's a sleight of hand manoeuvre to divert attention.

[peter w]

Your name does add to the tedium Risso so thanks for your assistance...As it is Black was at the Shit so to save time I'll just tell him to feck off.

[JUAN PABLO]

At least he is consistent .

caretaker boss at Birmingham , Sunderland , rotherham and Aston villa win percentage

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