Eric Black

[Edvard Remberg]

all a tad irrelevant surely as Black's going to be history in a few weeks time?

Yeah - I am surprised I even care anymore what current regime does - though preventing them doing more damage would be nice. There is always room for more fuckups

[Ian.]

Okore is known in Denmark for no-nonsense, hard-working non-complaining player. I find it hard to believe that he suddenly changed character. This sounds like a way of getting rid of a paycheck next season.

I thought he went on strike to get his move here? Or am I thinking of someone else?

Your thinking of Benteke.

Okore's move came out of the blue at the start of the summer. If'd he'd been striking, it would have involved refusing to go to the beach or getting on the plane.

Ok, my mistake. I knew it was someone we signed.

[ChicagoLion]

Why would Black need to write a letter?
It's not like he does not see the bloke every day, maybe that's what is wrong, instead of a team talk they all get a letter through the post.
Dear Brad
You will be in goal today, that is the white thing with nets tied to it, they are normally found at either end of the pitch, good luck. Eric 35 years and counting.
Dear Leandro
You will be pleased to know that you have retained your place as midfield Dynamo and playmaker.
Great to see you at the club last night but you really should not have paid for all of those dances.
Lots of love and not a word to Mrs Eric.
Ps ignore the boo boys they don't even know the words to milkshake.

[paul_e]

So using Paul e's line of argument : fans think Gabby is bad = Gabby is bad
Fans like Okore= Black's an idiot

What seems to be indisputable is that Okore has spoken to Black about not playing which is fair enough. There also seems to be no dispute that Black then gave a two week cooling off period from whatever it was that Okore said. That also hasn't been disputed. So the question is what happened next. Any player that has questioned the manager's authority regarding picking the team so he was always going to have to sit on the bench at best following talks and/or the "cooling off " period.

It's likely that Olore has indicated that his position hasn't changed and Black will have taken the line that if you don't like it (being on the bench) then you're dropped. He may or may not have specifically said "I'll never play again", but if he's refused to sit on the bench because he thinks he should be playing that's tantamount to refusing to play.

In this fuck up of a season the last thing we should be supporting is any situation where a player believes he has the power, however warranted he may be in wanting to start, so Black was 100% right.

You've got my point wrong so let's simplify.

Gabby has no future at the club and has been taking the piss for over a year. Black has no future at the club, he's an assistant who came in and our performances got worse. Okore might have a future at the club.  On that simple basis I don't mind Black pissing off Gabby but I think him getting into arguments with Okore weakens our squad for next season which, in my opinion, is unforgivable for a guy who's sole job was to see us through to the end of the season without anything stupid happening.

After that you give a version of events that largely supports your view (by making Okore out as being the one who has been unreasonable), as has been pointed out Okore has a reputation of being very honest and saying what he thinks when asked so it could easily be something more like:

EB - "I want to start with x and y with you on the bench, what do you think about that?"
JO - "I think you're wrong because of a, b, c"
EB - "Well it's my job to pick the team and that's the one I've selected"
JO - "Then why bother asking me if I'm ok with being on the bench?  I'm not, I want to play and I think I should be in the team"
EB - "If you're not ok with being on the bench then you're dropped from the squad"

2 weeks later

EB - "Are you ok with being on the bench now?"
JO - "I still think I should be starting"
EB - "Then you train with the kids"

I'm not saying that's what happened, I'm pointing out that in that situation I'm on Okore's side so "Black was 100% right" is clearly nonsense.

[in exile]

Why would Black need to write a letter?..

Eh?

[peter w]

So using Paul e's line of argument : fans think Gabby is bad = Gabby is bad
Fans like Okore= Black's an idiot

What seems to be indisputable is that Okore has spoken to Black about not playing which is fair enough. There also seems to be no dispute that Black then gave a two week cooling off period from whatever it was that Okore said. That also hasn't been disputed. So the question is what happened next. Any player that has questioned the manager's authority regarding picking the team so he was always going to have to sit on the bench at best following talks and/or the "cooling off " period.

It's likely that Olore has indicated that his position hasn't changed and Black will have taken the line that if you don't like it (being on the bench) then you're dropped. He may or may not have specifically said "I'll never play again", but if he's refused to sit on the bench because he thinks he should be playing that's tantamount to refusing to play.

In this fuck up of a season the last thing we should be supporting is any situation where a player believes he has the power, however warranted he may be in wanting to start, so Black was 100% right.

That was an interesting way of concluding he was 100% right. That sounds like "Black is always right"

Yes I believe he is right in how he has picked his centre-half pairings based on what has happened with Okore. That, however, is quite distinct from saying that he is always right and I think you'll struggle to see where I've said he's always right.

[peter w]

As for Paul e 's attempt to simplify that's fair enough if you think any manager or person picking a team will ask a player what he thinks about a team selection. That is quote a ridiculous notion. It's more likely that Black told him he was on the bench at some point Okore has spoken to the manager after being on the bench saying he believes he should be playing and it is from here that the facts get hazy.

I believe that Black has said that's my team like it or lump it, he decided to lump it, so Black gave him time to consider his next step, he still lumped it so Black said "fine" you're with the kids.

I'm not at any time saying Black has the right to make the decision, whatever the merits of Okore's inclusion or not he should be professional and deal with it. Black has chopped and changed quite often so the likelihood is that he would have been back in by now but he made the decision for Black. Whatever the rights and wrongs are the player should never dictate selection and so Black is right.

[paul_e]

As for Paul e 's attempt to simplify that's fair enough if you think any manager or person picking a team will ask a player what he thinks about a team selection. That is quote a ridiculous notion. It's more likely that Black told him he was on the bench at some point Okore has spoken to the manager after being on the bench saying he believes he should be playing and it is from here that the facts get hazy.

I believe that Black has said that's my team like it or lump it, he decided to lump it, so Black gave him time to consider his next step, he still lumped it so Black said "fine" you're with the kids.

I'm not at any time saying Black has the right to make the decision, whatever the merits of Okore's inclusion or not he should be professional and deal with it. Black has chopped and changed quite often so the likelihood is that he would have been back in by now but he made the decision for Black. Whatever the rights and wrongs are the player should never dictate selection and so Black is right.

I think they'd certainly talk to the players after making a decision and it would be naive in the extreme to not expect a player to be disappointed.  I purposely went with a version f events that went further the other way but I just don't see how you can be so certain that Black is right and Okore is wrong here.  Black has shown repeatedly that his decision making isn't great and Okore has shown repeatedly that gametime is the thing he cares about most.  On that basis I do not support a caretaker manager with no long term strategy deciding to ban a player from the squad over an internal matter and then tell all the press about it.  Gabby is different because his issues were public so had to have a public response.  As I've said, I'm utterly convinced that everything Black is doing is to highlight how terrible a situation he's found himself in so he can safely get a new a job, I don't even fault him for that, he's a caretaker with no long-term future at the club, looking after himself is fine in that regard, but he shouldn't be harming the club to do it and I believe some of his actions have caused us problems.

[peter w]

You seriously think a manager picks a team and then would talk to a player? They may tell a player that he's on the bench, or even playing, yes, but that's not how you presented your argument. The manager would not ask, "What do you think about that"? Black has certainly not done anything to suggest he is the man to take charge of us next season but his brief was probably bring us through this turgid end of season which he has done. You may question one or two things but his right to take decisions shouldn't be one of them. If anyone is harming or has harmed the club it can't be Black Its Lerner. Its Fox. Its Armstadt. Its Gabby. Its Richards. Its N'Zogbia. Its Okore. Black may we be crap, he's in good company then, because Ayew aside who else can hold their head up this season?

[paul_e]

I specifically said that I went with a version of events which went the other way and I did it because you presented one where Black was right based on guess work, so i countered it to show that your '100% right' comment was anything but that.

As for listing off a bunch of names of people who deserve more criticism who cares in the context of this conversation?  The context, from the very beginning is you thinking that Black is doing a good job and using him dropping probably the best central defender in the squad as a good thing.

[peter w]

I was using logic based on what has gone before and based on the little we know. You have just used any wordsin an absurd conversation to counter that. What we do know is that Okore didn't want to be on the bench and now he's out of the team. I am 100% behind Black in keeping a player out who questions his right to pick his team. Okore would get more sympathy if he had been anything less than very mediocre this season so he has very little solid footing to expect to be picked. I don't think it is doubted that okore has questioned the manager's authoirty here and if it is then I have yet to see one thing to prove that.

If it turns out that Black is lying then what? Do we then expect to sack Holis and Sir Brian for allowing the manager to spread rumours of a player refusing to play and then sending him to train with the kids? If Black is lying then what message does that send ou tfrom the manager? Would there be an even less of an effort seen by the players? As it is the players are trying but they are mediocre at best and mediocre players with no confidence is what we see every week. Not mediocre players who have seen one of their team mates lied about, and accused of doing something that we see from the likes of Van Hooydonck who refuse to play for the first team for one reason or the other. Then, players came out with their opinion on the subject, as did staff around Forest. What have you heard from one person at Villa in defence of Okore? What expose have you heard from players keen to leave who could easily use that as an excuse to force through their departure from a club about to be relegated. There's been nothing. The reason for that suggests the story is closer to how Black and Villa have reported it than Okore.

Naming other names is very much in the context of the criticism of Black. He is trying to right a rotten core and has had Okore throwing his lot in and to me is an example of the rottenness around the place, and further evidence of the difficulty of his job. Is he doing a 'good' job? I don't know but appears as if he is trying.

Calling Okore the best defender? Based on what? I could call Lescott the best defender based on him playing for Man City and England a few years ago but it counts for little as he, Okore, Clark, Richards, have all been varying shades of abysmal this season.

[paul_e]

There's no point carrying on, you're determined, for some reason, to nothing wrong in anything Black has done, I see little from him to suggest he's been worth his salary so lets agree to leave it there.

Oh and Okore is the best central defender in the squad based on the fact that any time our defence has looked remotely solid in the last 2 years he's been in it, bar a short run with Vlaar and Senderos (who could both have been great defenders if they weren't made of glass) who aren't here.  If you're going to champion Lescott then I suggest we go and get Terry, he's a knob who's best days are long behind him but he's been England captain.

[Dave]

I am 100% behind Black in keeping a player out who questions his right to pick his team.

Given the terrible teams that he's been picking, I'd be more worried if the players weren't questioning his right to pick the team.

[peter w]

There's no point carrying on, you're determined, for some reason, to nothing wrong in anything Black has done, I see little from him to suggest he's been worth his salary so lets agree to leave it there.

Oh and Okore is the best central defender in the squad based on the fact that any time our defence has looked remotely solid in the last 2 years he's been in it, bar a short run with Vlaar and Senderos (who could both have been great defenders if they weren't made of glass) who aren't here.  If you're going to champion Lescott then I suggest we go and get Terry, he's a knob who's best days are long behind him but he's been England captain.

Okore has been poor this season. They all have. Have a gander at the league table. And not sure where you've seen me champion Lescott. I've even got that ability to read between the lines and, nope, still not there.

[peter w]

I am 100% behind Black in keeping a player out who questions his right to pick his team.

Given the terrible teams that he's been picking, I'd be more worried if the players weren't questioning his right to pick the team.

Given the terrible players he has to pick from I'd be as flabbergasted as I am that people think Black would be doing that much better than he has.