Eric Black

[Toronto Villa]

If he picked players that weren't universally disliked the problem immediately goes away. Throw some kids in the fans would get behind the side immediately and the atmosphere would be completely different. We might still lose the games but I bet you the effort would be much greater than we have seen all season.

[Exeter 77]

I thought it was interesting on Saturday that Ashley Westwood chose not to celebrate either of his goals despite both of them getting us back into the game. I think that may have been partially because he wasn't sure what the crowd's reaction would be.  Even though Westwood is one of the players less likely to be a target for abuse it obviously affected him.

[peter w]

And yet by dropping those 4 or 5 players you think what exactly would improve? lets say we did drop those mentioned above and we lost 8-0 but ran around more you'd be happier because the the bad and the average, and the idiots will have been dropped? No, I think it would only make things worse. It would just be a "Fuck it they'll all a bunch of cnuts. None of them are any good". Black is trying to protect against that and using what he has at his disposal. i think ist the right method although i agree that its a tough sell when taking Ayew off after an hour - but what had he done up until then?

[ciggiesnbeer]

We are losing every game right now under Black PLUS playing players who have expressed through word & deed they really do not give a damn and want away.

Honestly "pandering to the fans" and playing the kids literally cannot do any worse.

Its not like we get -1 point for losing in a particularly bad way.

Worst case we get a 8-nil hiding. Been there, done it. There are very few bad records left to break. Just give the fans something to cheer about by an interesting team selection. There is no way the kids are getting booed.

[peter w]

We've been losing games all season. Who do you think could change that? Which players hidden away that have been available under Sherwood and Garde do you think will be unearthed that would be useful at this point? Throw the kids in now? Not as part of any wholesale changes. Kids won't get booed, no, but that would be throwing in the towel  (just throwing kids in and despite how shit we are we have a duty to try and be professional (no laughing at the back) and show enough respect to other teams that we are that desperate we just throw anyone in just to see what happens.

[PeterWithesShin]

And yet by dropping those 4 or 5 players you think what exactly would improve? lets say we did drop those mentioned above and we lost 8-0 but ran around more you'd be happier because the the bad and the average, and the idiots will have been dropped? No, I think it would only make things worse. It would just be a "Fuck it they'll all a bunch of cnuts. None of them are any good". Black is trying to protect against that and using what he has at his disposal. i think ist the right method although i agree that its a tough sell when taking Ayew off after an hour - but what had he done up until then?

Even ignoring that those players are creating the 'toxic' atmosphere off the pitch, do you really think swapping those 4 or 5 players could make us worse on it? Worse than 10 straight defeats, 6 straight home defeats, 3 wins from 35 games, 16 points from 105 available, lowest scorers in the division, worst defence in the division? If we lose without scoring at Watford we'll have more defeats than goals scored in the league this season.

How can it be any worse?

[ciggiesnbeer]

You are right, but we are also losing games with these players under Black.

I don't see changing the players would be being unprofessional at all. Okore for example has demonstrated we perform better with him in the team (thats just a statistic not an opinion). Why shouldn't he replace one of our defenders?

(thanks for the discussion by the way PeterW, even though I disagree I appreciate your advocacy for the unpopular opinion, always a hard road, good stuff)

[peter w]

And yet by dropping those 4 or 5 players you think what exactly would improve? lets say we did drop those mentioned above and we lost 8-0 but ran around more you'd be happier because the the bad and the average, and the idiots will have been dropped? No, I think it would only make things worse. It would just be a "Fuck it they'll all a bunch of cnuts. None of them are any good". Black is trying to protect against that and using what he has at his disposal. i think ist the right method although i agree that its a tough sell when taking Ayew off after an hour - but what had he done up until then?

Even ignoring that those players are creating the 'toxic' atmosphere off the pitch, do you really think swapping those 4 or 5 players could make us worse on it? Worse than 10 straight defeats, 6 straight home defeats, 3 wins from 35 games, 16 points from 105 available, lowest scorers in the division, worst defence in the division? If we lose without scoring at Watford we'll have more defeats than goals scored in the league this season.

How can it be any worse?

It could only be worse if by changing it so fans can say "shit, at last" and then we get a stuffing. Black has spoken of his reluctance to play too many youngsters and its a sound reason. Just because we want shot of the players that have got us into this doesn't mean we should throw the kids under the bus just to keep the fans happy for the sake of the tail end of a god forsaken season.

[Nunkin1965]

We've been losing games all season. Who do you think could change that? Which players hidden away that have been available under Sherwood and Garde do you think will be unearthed that would be useful at this point? Throw the kids in now? Not as part of any wholesale changes. Kids won't get booed, no, but that would be throwing in the towel  (just throwing kids in and despite how shit we are we have a duty to try and be professional (no laughing at the back) and show enough respect to other teams that we are that desperate we just throw anyone in just to see what happens.

I totally  get your point and you're right.

Managers don't and won't expose youngsters to this so we're just going to have to sit it out.
I think Black is missing an opportunity here by not adding some flair and youth to the side personally and picking up a few brownie points for at least changing things around.

[Toronto Villa]

I thought it was interesting on Saturday that Ashley Westwood chose not to celebrate either of his goals despite both of them getting us back into the game. I think that may have been partially because he wasn't sure what the crowd's reaction would be.  Even though Westwood is one of the players less likely to be a target for abuse it obviously affected him.

I think he realized that celebrating a goal in a game we were losing, in a season that we got relegated, in a game that meant nothing, in an atmosphere that was already hostile would have been a bad thing to do.

[PeterWithesShin]

And what if without those 4 or 5 players we see a bit of improvement rather than a total collapse? It's not as if it's guaranteed it will be three 8-0 defeats. Maybe one or two youngsters will step up, put a marker down to be included next season. What I will say is if we continue picking those 4 or 5 players we'll continue to have a 'toxic' atmosphere', we'll almost certainly finish the season with 13 straight defeats. To me we have more to potentially gain than lose.

[peter w]

You are right, but we are also losing games with these players under Black.

I don't see changing the players would be being unprofessional at all. Okore for example has demonstrated we perform better with him in the team (thats just a statistic not an opinion). Why shouldn't he replace one of our defenders?

(thanks for the discussion by the way PeterW, even though I disagree I appreciate your advocacy for the unpopular opinion, always a hard road, good stuff)

What I would do and where I agree with the point of a missed opportunity is to try and change the formstion. Go 5-4-1, or 4-5-1 to try and just sit. just try something else. We haven't the players so try different ideas. But I can understand that it is difficult to just change when the ship has sailed so far and you know someone else is coming in soon anyway.

And cheers ciggies. I do get the booing. And I understand it and largely accepted it at first but that has got to a point of being counter-productive now and (checks and remembers this is the Black thread) i do think Black is in an unbelievably difficult position right now.

[Villa in Denmark]

And what if without those 4 or 5 players we see a bit of improvement rather than a total collapse? It's not as if it's guaranteed it will be three 8-0 defeats. Maybe one or two youngsters will step up, put a marker down to be included next season. What I will say is if we continue picking those 4 or 5 players we'll continue to have a 'toxic' atmosphere', we'll almost certainly finish the season with 13 straight defeats. To me we have more to potentially gain than lose.

You could certainly start by binning Richards and Lescott who seem to be the targets for most of the stress relief.

That would however entail bringing Okore back into the fold and pairing him with Clark, which I still think has been our best pairing over the last 2 seasons. Yes damning with faint praise.  That still leaves you with 3 subs to try and do something with as the game progresses, and shifts 2 of the problem people out for players who aren't green, naive or as easily cowed as the youngsters he's worried about.

[Des Little]

What is the point of Eric Black right now? He's about as useful as a pair of sunglasses to a bloke with one ear.

[peter w]

And what if without those 4 or 5 players we see a bit of improvement rather than a total collapse? It's not as if it's guaranteed it will be three 8-0 defeats. Maybe one or two youngsters will step up, put a marker down to be included next season. What I will say is if we continue picking those 4 or 5 players we'll continue to have a 'toxic' atmosphere', we'll almost certainly finish the season with 13 straight defeats. To me we have more to potentially gain than lose.

You could certainly start by binning Richards and Lescott who seem to be the targets for most of the stress relief.

That would however entail bringing Okore back into the fold and pairing him with Clark, which I still think has been our best pairing over the last 2 seasons. Yes damning with faint praise.  That still leaves you with 3 subs to try and do something with as the game progresses, and shifts 2 of the problem people out for players who aren't green, naive or as easily cowed as the youngsters he's worried about.

Okay, let's say they're binned. Okore isn't going to get selected and that seems fair enough - whichever way you think you blame should fall for him being dropped - Clark was injured last week and Baker is on loan. So, for the next game, or even the game against Southampton would you have started with Toner and one of Lescott or Richards? For me that would be unfair on Toner - a player that has hardly warranted a mention to be included int he first team up until now.