Domestic & European Rugby 2015-16

[paul_e]

Yes, credit to gloucester as well, once again proving that the bottom half of the prem is a long way ahead of the equivalent in the rabo and pro 14 (I don't mean that to sound sarcastic before anyone gets frustrated with me).  Their performances in that competition over the last couple of seasons show exactly why I think English rugby is in such a strong place, no other country has the depth of talent and competition we do.  9 teams out of 12 qualified and 6 of them won their groups, only Bath (in a horrific group), Newcastle and Worcester (newly promoted and concentrating on the league) haven't made it out of their groups.  You'd have to hope that there is a real chance of a double but Racing do look a very strong side and I wouldn't write off Toulon even though they're not up to their previous standards.

However, to sour the positives in English rugby Sarries are once again proving that they're a football-esque blight on the league - http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/rugby-union/35400355 - so over the salary cap and their wages go up again, completely unmanageable debts and the smug twat at the top comes out with this shit:

Chairman Nigel Wray said having a smaller squad and "finishing 11th" was one obvious way to cut the debt.

"But that would send out a terrible message to players that we weren't ambitious and would hardly attract sponsors," he added.

"We have a very well-known brand which is of considerable value and must be nurtured."

So running up debts to attract new players and sponsors which will increase turnover but necessitate further debts to keep everyone happy and they can't see that at some point the league will have had enough of letting them ignore the cap at which point they're going to be fucked, they're basically man utd with a different ball and the sooner they fuck off to oblivion the better.

[cheltenhamlion]

Aye.

[Dante Lavelli]

Whats the cap?  Are they proven to be above it, last I read they had claimed they were within the magic number.  Does the article confirm otherwise?

[paul_e]

The cap is £5.6m - broken into £100k for the academy, £400k extra for 2 'unlisted' players (basically this is so they can stop players leaving to go to france) and the rest as the main salary cap.  There are a whole bunch of other clauses though and Sarries in particular have been accused of 'playing' the numbers of the clauses to give their wage bill an air of legitimacy.  In truth the concensus is that for the season that was investigated £5.4m on playing staff and £2m-ish on other staff so a total bill of £6.5-7m in the accounts is in line with expectations.  For that season Saints reported £6.8m for example, Sarries reported £8.1m, that's a big difference.

 The suggestion therefore is that for them to be legitimately within the cap (that they've publicly opposed and the chairman is on record of calling a farce) they'd need to be paying their admin staff 25-30% above the London average and there is little evidence to support that.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/premiership/11982510/Premiership-rugby-salary-cap-cover-up-is-a-scandal-which-cheats-fans.html - so to sum up, commercial payments were agreed instead of punishments and the only clubs that didn't then break the confidentiality agreements and  outright state they were innocent were Leicester and Sarries (with Bath choosing to mislead and point out that they were within the cap for 14/15 when the investigation was on 13/14).  That all this came along with rumours of coercion and bullying suggests that the majority of the clubs weren't particularly happy to have some clubs clearly ignoring the laws and being given a green light from the league.

There's nothing concrete but it's a safe guess to suggest Sarries aren't playing by the rules.

[olaftab]

Wasps have done a fantastic job of trying to get the community to buy in to the club, I've heard loads of good things and yes the ticket prices are great for most rugby matches.

Good to see all that Land Rover money is not being wasted.

[lovejoy]

The seeding in the Challenge cup is a joke. Glos win 6/6 and are ranked behind Harlequins in 5/6.
Also if an away team wins a QF they will have home country advantage against the 1st or 2nd ranked teams. They must be drunk.

[paul_e]

The seeding in the Challenge cup is a joke. Glos win 6/6 and are ranked behind Harlequins in 5/6.
Also if an away team wins a QF they will have home country advantage against the 1st or 2nd ranked teams. They must be drunk.

I guess that's based on reuslts over the last few years where quins have been up towards the top end of the league, I agree it's strange though, I just put all those rankings down to the same false maths which sees side like Mexico often sneak into the top5 in the football rankings despite losing pretty much any time they play anyone else in the top 10-12 (out of interest it's Chile who are currently occupying a spot far in advance of their ability and are ranked 5th).

[cheltenhamlion]

I think the theory is that there should be a reward if you win away in the quarters against a higher ranked team. Stoll seems daft mind.

On the seedings, I don't know how they work. Is it points accrued? If not, and there is some odd coefficient thing, Gloucester have every reason to be miffed that they are holders and won every group game, and aren't top seeds.

[Ad@m]

On the seedings, I don't know how they work. Is it points accrued? If not, and there is some odd coefficient thing, Gloucester have every reason to be miffed that they are holders and won every group game, and aren't top seeds.

I assume the seedings are the same as for the Champions Cup - group winners, ordered by number of points accrued, followed by group runners up ordered by number of points accrued.

Despite winning a game more Gloucester still only got 25 points, the same as Quins, and given Quins won all their games with a bonus point their points difference is much better than Gloucester's, hence the higher seeding.

[cheltenhamlion]

And that would make sense. I was more responding to Lovejoy and how his bemusement left me questioning how it works.

[paul_e]

On the seedings, I don't know how they work. Is it points accrued? If not, and there is some odd coefficient thing, Gloucester have every reason to be miffed that they are holders and won every group game, and aren't top seeds.

I assume the seedings are the same as for the Champions Cup - group winners, ordered by number of points accrued, followed by group runners up ordered by number of points accrued.

Despite winning a game more Gloucester still only got 25 points, the same as Quins, and given Quins won all their games with a bonus point their points difference is much better than Gloucester's, hence the higher seeding.

I'm not sure why but I was convinced that gloucester had 26 points hence I got drawn into it as well.

[lovejoy]

It's bullshit that a team can win 5 and be ahead of a team winning 6, bps or not. First criteria should be wins then take in the bps to spot thereafter.

[Ad@m]

I quite like the bonus point rule. It gives teams a reason to attack and keeps the games interesting even when it's obvious who's going to win.

And as a spectator I'd rather a team is rewarded for twatting 4 out of 6 teams say, whilst losing the other two trying, rather than teams who scrape through with 5 wins.

[paul_e]

I agree, the BP rule is key to keeping rugby exciting because teams that are losing will keep going to try to get a losing bonus point and the team in the lead will push for a fourth try.  you know it's been a good game if one team gets 5 points and the other gets 2 for example.

[paul_e]

The mistake from Botica at the end of the quins vs saints game is up there with the worst you'll ever see on a rugby pitch:

http://sport.bt.com/tries/saints-claim-stunning-last-play-win-over-quins-91364038615684

So gets the ball in the dead bal lzone after the clock has gone over 80 which gives him  the option to:

Touch it down
Kick or throw out directly behind himself
kick to the shorter side with no regard for distance

instead he kicks to the far wing and tries to make as much distance as possible.  It's almost as if he had no idea that the clock was gone but given the clock had a second left when the scrum started that's pretty shocking communication through to him if it's the case.  Lovely hands from Mallinder in the middle of the move afterwards though, he really does look like he could be a world class 12.