Randy Lerner

[TopDeck113]

This argument is precisely why trying to compare 1986/87 and 2015/16 is ultimately pointless, be it in terms of either ownership or playing squad, but for one last time I'll try to explain my view:

(1) When the club got relegated in 1987 other than the the 13,000 who were paying at the gate and the wider "support" no one would have particularly noticed.  Football was mostly an irrelevance. Now it is in so many respects the be-all-and-end-all. Or rather the Premier League is.  And Doug would have been cute enough to understand that.

(2) The loss of revenue as a result of relegation is now massive both in real and actual terms.  In 1987 a club's biggest revenue stream was the takings on the gate and whilst in that respect it would obviously be better to be at the top end of Division One than battling for promotion in Division Two, the difference would not be that great (in fact from memory I think our average attendance showed an increase in 1987/88).  And to even describe the European Cup as a gravy train is far from the truth.  Although there were also other factors at play, let us not forget that the club actually made a loss in the year it was Champions of Europe.  Now takings on the gate are secondary to the money received from TV provided you are in the Premier League.  Now that is a gravy train and again I would suggest that Doug would pull out all the stops to stay on it.

I don't excuse or try to be an apologist for what Doug did in the 1980s.  Far from it.  But I recognize that then and now are different times.  For  reasons of status and finance if nothing else, those are the reasons why I believe Doug would not have allowed things to develop as they have done. 

[ChicagoLion]

Does Doug care more about Villa? I think that is obvious.
The Villa during most of Dougs reign had a significant advantage over most other clubs, it was called gate money.
Now TV money has levelled the playing field as match day takings become a less and less significant proprtion of revenue management and strategy are significantly more important.
This is where Lerner has failed badly, he has allowed clubs with less resources than us and without the 200 million+ of his own cash to count for nothing. This is spectacular failure.

Top Deck I think I said this above

[CT Villan]

Of course Doug cared more about the Villa...it was a reflection of his own 'greatness'.

He made many mistakes during his tenure, but I would say though that having cashed in, and also being old and somewhat infirm, he stills turns up to watch. Why would he do that if it was only about him and money ?

...and anyone offering Newcastle as evidence that relegation can somehow renew and revitalize the club...yes, they bounced back up, but where are they right now ? The Blues have been bouncing up and down for years now, it is a difficult habit to break.

[dave shelley]

CTV, I have to take issue with you here re Doug.  I too am becoming old, something recently made me realise that I too am becoming infirm.  Yesterday cost me £100 for tickets for myself, my son and two grandchildren, £100 I could put to better use.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not on the breadline but, comparing Doug's attendance at VP, his infirmities notwithstanding is, frankly horseshit.  Doug has more money than me, a higher profile than me and is far and away more self-indulgent than me but, his love of Aston Villa is nowhere near or ever will be as good as mine.  Egotist or not, you decide.

[dave.woodhall]

This argument is precisely why trying to compare 1986/87 and 2015/16 is ultimately pointless, be it in terms of either ownership or playing squad, but for one last time I'll try to explain my view:

(1) When the club got relegated in 1987 other than the the 13,000 who were paying at the gate and the wider "support" no one would have particularly noticed.  Football was mostly an irrelevance. Now it is in so many respects the be-all-and-end-all. Or rather the Premier League is.  And Doug would have been cute enough to understand that.

(2) The loss of revenue as a result of relegation is now massive both in real and actual terms.  In 1987 a club's biggest revenue stream was the takings on the gate and whilst in that respect it would obviously be better to be at the top end of Division One than battling for promotion in Division Two, the difference would not be that great (in fact from memory I think our average attendance showed an increase in 1987/88).  And to even describe the European Cup as a gravy train is far from the truth.  Although there were also other factors at play, let us not forget that the club actually made a loss in the year it was Champions of Europe.  Now takings on the gate are secondary to the money received from TV provided you are in the Premier League.  Now that is a gravy train and again I would suggest that Doug would pull out all the stops to stay on it.

I don't excuse or try to be an apologist for what Doug did in the 1980s.  Far from it.  But I recognize that then and now are different times.  For  reasons of status and finance if nothing else, those are the reasons why I believe Doug would not have allowed things to develop as they have done. 

And yet he was quite happy to let us flirt with relegation in 2006 to the extent he wouldn't finance Erik Bakke on loan.

[dave.woodhall]

Does Doug care more about Villa? I think that is obvious.
The Villa during most of Dougs reign had a significant advantage over most other clubs, it was called gate money.
Now TV money has levelled the playing field as match day takings become a less and less significant proprtion of revenue management and strategy are significantly more important.
This is where Lerner has failed badly, he has allowed clubs with less resources than us and without the 200 million+ of his own cash to count for nothing. This is spectacular failure.

Top Deck I think I said this above

If you want to talk overtaking, in 1981-82 Wimbledon were relegated to division four.

[Clampy]

Whether it's 1987 or 2016, relegation is best avoided.

Yes  like any other problem best avoided however when it happens we must deal with it properly with a plan to recover.

It is difficult to set a plan when the ownership is up in the air. As for Ellis, he is a complete penis IMHO

Ellis wasn't a complete penis though, and neither is Lerner a ******.

[CT Villan]

CTV, I have to take issue with you here re Doug.  I too am becoming old, something recently made me realise that I too am becoming infirm.  Yesterday cost me £100 for tickets for myself, my son and two grandchildren, £100 I could put to better use.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not on the breadline but, comparing Doug's attendance at VP, his infirmities notwithstanding is, frankly horseshit.  Doug has more money than me, a higher profile than me and is far and away more self-indulgent than me but, his love of Aston Villa is nowhere near or ever will be as good as mine.  Egotist or not, you decide.

Dave, all good points, but if some of the other posters are correct and Doug doesn't care about the Villa, only himself and money - why does he continue to attend when he really doesn't have to - its not like anyone gives a shit whether he is there or not...he's an irrelevance now, part of history. Does he go purely to look at the Doug Ellis Stand and massage his ego...possibly, but I would have to think there are easier ways for him to do that.

[villan from luton]

Doug loves Villa so much he was involved with two other midland clubs, he is a cock. He totally fecked our club up when we should have been kicking on. His ego was too big for the club. By the way, if he had won his election circa 1979, Ron Saunders would have been history. Total cock and those who think he loves Villa are wrong

[dave.woodhall]

CTV, I have to take issue with you here re Doug.  I too am becoming old, something recently made me realise that I too am becoming infirm.  Yesterday cost me £100 for tickets for myself, my son and two grandchildren, £100 I could put to better use.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not on the breadline but, comparing Doug's attendance at VP, his infirmities notwithstanding is, frankly horseshit.  Doug has more money than me, a higher profile than me and is far and away more self-indulgent than me but, his love of Aston Villa is nowhere near or ever will be as good as mine.  Egotist or not, you decide.

Dave, all good points, but if some of the other posters are correct and Doug doesn't care about the Villa, only himself and money - why does he continue to attend when he really doesn't have to - its not like anyone gives a shit whether he is there or not...he's an irrelevance now, part of history. Does he go purely to look at the Doug Ellis Stand and massage his ego...possibly, but I would have to think there are easier ways for him to do that.

He goes because he has nothing else in his life.

[Clampy]

CTV, I have to take issue with you here re Doug.  I too am becoming old, something recently made me realise that I too am becoming infirm.  Yesterday cost me £100 for tickets for myself, my son and two grandchildren, £100 I could put to better use.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not on the breadline but, comparing Doug's attendance at VP, his infirmities notwithstanding is, frankly horseshit.  Doug has more money than me, a higher profile than me and is far and away more self-indulgent than me but, his love of Aston Villa is nowhere near or ever will be as good as mine.  Egotist or not, you decide.

Dave, all good points, but if some of the other posters are correct and Doug doesn't care about the Villa, only himself and money - why does he continue to attend when he really doesn't have to - its not like anyone gives a shit whether he is there or not...he's an irrelevance now, part of history. Does he go purely to look at the Doug Ellis Stand and massage his ego...possibly, but I would have to think there are easier ways for him to do that.

He goes because he has nothing else in his life.

I do disagree with that. I think his hearts in the right place and it always was I suppose. He does travel away as well, well he did, I'm not sure if he still does.

[Legion]

He does.

[dave.woodhall]

CTV, I have to take issue with you here re Doug.  I too am becoming old, something recently made me realise that I too am becoming infirm.  Yesterday cost me £100 for tickets for myself, my son and two grandchildren, £100 I could put to better use.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not on the breadline but, comparing Doug's attendance at VP, his infirmities notwithstanding is, frankly horseshit.  Doug has more money than me, a higher profile than me and is far and away more self-indulgent than me but, his love of Aston Villa is nowhere near or ever will be as good as mine.  Egotist or not, you decide.

Dave, all good points, but if some of the other posters are correct and Doug doesn't care about the Villa, only himself and money - why does he continue to attend when he really doesn't have to - its not like anyone gives a shit whether he is there or not...he's an irrelevance now, part of history. Does he go purely to look at the Doug Ellis Stand and massage his ego...possibly, but I would have to think there are easier ways for him to do that.

He goes because he has nothing else in his life.

I do disagree with that. I think his hearts in the right place and it always was I suppose.

Even when he was a director at Small Heath and chairman of Wolves?

[Clampy]

CTV, I have to take issue with you here re Doug.  I too am becoming old, something recently made me realise that I too am becoming infirm.  Yesterday cost me £100 for tickets for myself, my son and two grandchildren, £100 I could put to better use.  Don't get me wrong, I'm not on the breadline but, comparing Doug's attendance at VP, his infirmities notwithstanding is, frankly horseshit.  Doug has more money than me, a higher profile than me and is far and away more self-indulgent than me but, his love of Aston Villa is nowhere near or ever will be as good as mine.  Egotist or not, you decide.

Dave, all good points, but if some of the other posters are correct and Doug doesn't care about the Villa, only himself and money - why does he continue to attend when he really doesn't have to - its not like anyone gives a shit whether he is there or not...he's an irrelevance now, part of history. Does he go purely to look at the Doug Ellis Stand and massage his ego...possibly, but I would have to think there are easier ways for him to do that.

He goes because he has nothing else in his life.

I do disagree with that. I think his hearts in the right place and it always was I suppose.

Even when he was a director at Small Heath and chairman of Wolves?

Well maybe not then, but it is now. At his age (and wealth), he doesn't have to keep doing it.

[Richard E]

The fact (which it is) that Doug Ellis was a stingey self-aggrandising ego maniac doesn't detract in any way from the fact that for the last 5 years at least Randy Lerner has been disastrous for Aston Villa.