It's not Sherwood!

[mr underhill]

I'm guessing the doctrinal differences within the group?

[Tokyo Sexwhale]

still think for his tactical shortcomings he would have of turned it round
But we will never know

He definitely, definitely wouldn't.

He may have convinced a couple of mercenaries to join in January but we would still be as stuffed as we are now IMHO

I don't know  - I somehow think he might have eked out a couple more wins than Garde has done.  2 more wins, or the equivalent in points, would mean we're still in the mix.

What maths have you used there considering the run we were on before Garde was appointed?

1. Sherwood has shown he can win games in the Premier League.
2. I think nearly all the games we lost this season (under Sherwood) were by 1 goal margins; where we lost the game due to an individual error.
3. When Garde came in he had to start all over again.  We didn't even get a new manager bounce.
4. The English players/Guzan have arguably been worse than the foreigners, they don't have the excuse of being new to the Premier League.  Sherwood might have gotten more out of them.

So not maths exactly, just a feeling.

[Stirchley Villain]

I'm guessing the doctrinal differences within the group?

Okay

[Dave]

still think for his tactical shortcomings he would have of turned it round
But we will never know

He definitely, definitely wouldn't.

He may have convinced a couple of mercenaries to join in January but we would still be as stuffed as we are now IMHO

I don't know  - I somehow think he might have eked out a couple more wins than Garde has done.  2 more wins, or the equivalent in points, would mean we're still in the mix.

What maths have you used there considering the run we were on before Garde was appointed?

1. Sherwood has shown he can win games in the Premier League.
2. I think nearly all the games we lost this season (under Sherwood) were by 1 goal margins; where we lost the game due to an individual error.
3. When Garde came in he had to start all over again.  We didn't even get a new manager bounce.
4. The English players/Guzan have arguably been worse than the foreigners, they don't have the excuse of being new to the Premier League.  Sherwood might have gotten more out of them.

On point four, how was he going to do that when he refused to use half of them?

[Tokyo Sexwhale]

I suppose in summary, I don't think Sherwood would have done any worse than Garde has done. 

[django]

We couldn't be any worse off if we'd kept Sherwood.  And I really didn't like him and wanted him sacked. We were actually unfortunate in a couple of games earlier this season, and I felt we deserved more points than we picked up (against Sunderland at home for example) Sherwood lost his bottle and started trying to force those results by making random changes and then the momentum worked on our fragile confidence and dragged us down. But there's no guarantee that we would have carried on in the same tailspin if we'd stuck with Sherwood, whereas we have continued the tailspin under Garde.

I was embarrassed that Sherwod was our manager and I was pleased that we were replacing him with someone more eloquent and with a continental approach. But it's been a disaster.

[adrenachrome]

We couldn't be any worse off if we'd kept Sherwood.  And I really didn't like him and wanted him sacked. We were actually unfortunate in a couple of games earlier this season, and I felt we deserved more points than we picked up (against Sunderland at home for example) Sherwood lost his bottle and started trying to force those results by making random changes and then the momentum worked on our fragile confidence and dragged us down. But there's no guarantee that we would have carried on in the same tailspin if we'd stuck with Sherwood, whereas we have continued the tailspin under Garde.

I was embarrassed that Sherwod was our manager and I was pleased that we were replacing him with someone more eloquent and with a continental approach. But it's been a disaster.

This pretty much sums up the position of the majority of fans with whom I have discussed the issue, and I am a gregariously garrulous fellow when in in my cups, which is most of the time to be fair. 

[brian green]

It has been a disaster but the disaster has not been of Garde's making, it has been the making of the saboteurs, Guzan, Richards, Lescott, Agbonlahor, Clark, Bacuna and KMac.  Their sabotage has been aided and abetted by wimpish, limp twisted, sloppy arsed, shoulder shrugging cowardice from Westwood, Richardson, Bunn, Okore, Sanchez, Gestede and Sinclair.  Garde has had to put out teams containing that poisonous cocktail of defeatism while coping with an owner and a board prepared to see a good man carry the can for their shameful neglect of their responsibilities.

Garde is too good for us.  Let's get a hoarding kicking, Bodymoor Heath through-the-car-window sound bite specialist whose idea of communication with our French players will be along the lines of  "Mange tout Jordan, Mange tout."

[simboy]

We couldn't be any worse off if we'd kept Sherwood.  And I really didn't like him and wanted him sacked. We were actually unfortunate in a couple of games earlier this season, and I felt we deserved more points than we picked up (against Sunderland at home for example) Sherwood lost his bottle and started trying to force those results by making random changes and then the momentum worked on our fragile confidence and dragged us down. But there's no guarantee that we would have carried on in the same tailspin if we'd stuck with Sherwood, whereas we have continued the tailspin under Garde.

I was embarrassed that Sherwod was our manager and I was pleased that we were replacing him with someone more eloquent and with a continental approach. But it's been a disaster.

Far too many factors in play here to say that Garde is at fault and Sherwood would have done better. I doubt many managers would have faired much better with this bunch of players and this board not prepared to invest. Certainly not tactics Tim.

The turning point for two teams this season came in the one game at the King Power Station. The change that allowed Mahrez the freedom of Leicester. 

That can be attributed to no one else other than Sherwood.  From then on he was exposed for what he is/was, a media tart with little tactical knowledge. An inability to recognise his mistakes, an inability to pick a side and a system that he trusted, 4 points in 12 games.

The confidence dipped, we lost games that we should have had a point out of at least, we became every struggling striker/managers dream opponents. Brendan Rodgers was glad we turned up as were Chelsea, Swansea, Stoke, even the lot from across the city in the first half. 

 The writing was on the wall when Garde arrived. The boost that the club actually believed it could fight to stay in the division went out the January window.  The [slight] improvement in form seen until the end of January and then the total collapse demonstrates that.


 
 

[django]

We couldn't be any worse off if we'd kept Sherwood.  And I really didn't like him and wanted him sacked. We were actually unfortunate in a couple of games earlier this season, and I felt we deserved more points than we picked up (against Sunderland at home for example) Sherwood lost his bottle and started trying to force those results by making random changes and then the momentum worked on our fragile confidence and dragged us down. But there's no guarantee that we would have carried on in the same tailspin if we'd stuck with Sherwood, whereas we have continued the tailspin under Garde.

I was embarrassed that Sherwod was our manager and I was pleased that we were replacing him with someone more eloquent and with a continental approach. But it's been a disaster.

Far too many factors in play here to say that Garde is at fault and Sherwood would have done better. I doubt many managers would have faired much better with this bunch of players and this board not prepared to invest. Certainly not tactics Tim.

The turning point for two teams this season came in the one game at the King Power Station. The change that allowed Mahrez the freedom of Leicester. 

That can be attributed to no one else other than Sherwood.  From then on he was exposed for what he is/was, a media tart with little tactical knowledge. An inability to recognise his mistakes, an inability to pick a side and a system that he trusted, 4 points in 12 games.

The confidence dipped, we lost games that we should have had a point out of at least, we became every struggling striker/managers dream opponents. Brendan Rodgers was glad we turned up as were Chelsea, Swansea, Stoke, even the lot from across the city in the first half. 

 The writing was on the wall when Garde arrived. The boost that the club actually believed it could fight to stay in the division went out the January window.  The [slight] improvement in form seen until the end of January and then the total collapse demonstrates that.


 
 

I'm not saying that Sherwood would have been better, just that as its turned out things wouldn't have been any worse. Sherwood had at least got a record of winning a few games in the premier league, and the bulk of the players seemed to like him for some inexplicable reason.

I get Brian's point about the attitude of most of our players, although I think talk of sabotage is a bit extreme, although they clearly haven't taken to Garde from the off. But I would be amazed if that isn't a problem at several clubs, players lose motivation, a new manager comes in shakes things up and the same players start performing again. Garde has had a particularly difficult job, no signings of his own, and as a result the implication that he is in his way out in the summer, a seemingly split dressing room, and shit players.

But his job was to heal the rift I still some spirit and organisation and concentrate on getting us doing one thing on the pitch properly, whether defending, putting crosses in, going direct etc and he's done none of those things.

[brian green]

Take your points django but I stand by my charge of sabotage by the hardcore trouble makers.  I am not saying it was premeditated Grobbelar style sabotage but when you see, for example, Richards wilfully and persistently roaming all over the pitch regardless of his defensive responsibilities and consequent match losing soft goals being conceded, I regard that as sabotage by negligence.  Likewise Guzan constantly allowing crosses and corners to get no response from him.  Likewise Gabby at 29 bloating up in size when the team needs him to be lean and quick.  Sabotage by negligence.

[Clampy]

Take your points django but I stand by my charge of sabotage by the hardcore trouble makers.  I am not saying it was premeditated Grobbelar style sabotage but when you see, for example, Richards wilfully and persistently roaming all over the pitch regardless of his defensive responsibilities and consequent match losing soft goals being conceded, I regard that as sabotage by negligence.  Likewise Guzan constantly allowing crosses and corners to get no response from him.  Likewise Gabby at 29 bloating up in size when the team needs him to be lean and quick.  Sabotage by negligence.

I'm not sure sabotage is the right word. I just think it's been a mixture of lack of desire and not being good enough. I agree on Richards though. He was great in the first few games under Sherwood but playing him and Hutton in the same defence, it's no wonder we let in goals.

[Vegas]

Take your points django but I stand by my charge of sabotage by the hardcore trouble makers.  I am not saying it was premeditated Grobbelar style sabotage but when you see, for example, Richards wilfully and persistently roaming all over the pitch regardless of his defensive responsibilities and consequent match losing soft goals being conceded, I regard that as sabotage by negligence.  Likewise Guzan constantly allowing crosses and corners to get no response from him.  Likewise Gabby at 29 bloating up in size when the team needs him to be lean and quick.  Sabotage by negligence.

I don't disagree but I think they are different points.  Yes the senior players have been difficult (but similar to Clampy not sure if this quite counts as sabotage). But those are the players we have, and the discussion is which manager would have got the best out of them (a relative term ...)

Sherwood was poor, but Garde has been a disaster.  Sherwood had a very clear new manager bounce last year which saved our season, Garde has had none. We were competitive in games under Sherwood, much less of the white flag than under Garde.  And he at least seemed to be able to motivate some of the players. 

[walsall villain]

Take your points django but I stand by my charge of sabotage by the hardcore trouble makers.  I am not saying it was premeditated Grobbelar style sabotage but when you see, for example, Richards wilfully and persistently roaming all over the pitch regardless of his defensive responsibilities and consequent match losing soft goals being conceded, I regard that as sabotage by negligence.  Likewise Guzan constantly allowing crosses and corners to get no response from him.  Likewise Gabby at 29 bloating up in size when the team needs him to be lean and quick.  Sabotage by negligence.

I don't disagree but I think they are different points.  Yes the senior players have been difficult (but similar to Clampy not sure if this quite counts as sabotage). But those are the players we have, and the discussion is which manager would have got the best out of them (a relative term ...)

Sherwood was poor, but Garde has been a disaster.  Sherwood had a very clear new manager bounce last year which saved our season, Garde has had none. We were competitive in games under Sherwood, much less of the white flag than under Garde.  And he at least seemed to be able to motivate some of the players. 

The obvious difference is that Sherwood had a core of much better players to utilise, all of which have now left us, Garde has very average to downright useless players.

[Vegas]

Yep definitely true last season.  I'm not trying to argue Sherwood was great.  In some ways (organisation) Remi seems an improvement.  But in others (running up the white flag, player motivation)  he's not.  Totally agree that our biggest problem is that our playing roster is fucking diabolical.

Given that roster, on balance I'd probably just about rather have Sherwood to be honest, although it's a close call.