It's not Sherwood!

[Ian.]

Amavi, Gana, Vertout, Traore all look like bloody good players to me.

Ayew also showed he could be pretty explosive with his cameo against SHA. It's so strange how he has been left out since. I do wonder if Vertout would have been left in the side from The start how good he might be now.

[PeterWithesShin]

Does anybody think sabermetrics are all a club uses when anyone with a basic grasp of it knows it has limited use in football compared to its use in baseball.

It's widely used in American sport no reason an American owner wouldn't think it would work over here.I can think of 2 football clubs with American owners who know so little about football they would probably give it a punt,and pay a wad of cash not only to use the system,but put the people in place to use it.
I would guess it comes in cheaper then having a worldwide scouting network which any top club should have.

It is just lazy journalism. I bet most of the journos that use the term "moneyball" don't even understand it. Most of the time they link it to buying young talented players, buy cheap sell expensive. Which is what most clubs have been doing since long before Billy Beane was even born or Bill James first started publishing his own stats. So by their standards Benteke is a "moneyball" signing. As was Platt, Yorke etc.

The closest example to sabermetrics being used would be Liverpool with Downing (most crosses) and Carroll (headed goals). It wasn't moneyball as they ended up spending £55m on them, and they quickly found out it doesn't work that way in football anyway.

[bertlambshank]

If someone can't work out how to make the most of talented players then that sounds like an issue with the manager more than the players. IMO any way.

Too right it is but if the manager doesn't fancy the player to play in the system the manager wants that is a big problem for the club.
The problem is scouting this way doesn't make allowances for the style of play.
You can bet once a certain German rocks up in Merseyside the first thing he will do is do it his way.

[bertlambshank]

Does anybody think sabermetrics are all a club uses when anyone with a basic grasp of it knows it has limited use in football compared to its use in baseball.

It's widely used in American sport no reason an American owner wouldn't think it would work over here.I can think of 2 football clubs with American owners who know so little about football they would probably give it a punt,and pay a wad of cash not only to use the system,but put the people in place to use it.
I would guess it comes in cheaper then having a worldwide scouting network which any top club should have.

It is just lazy journalism. I bet most of the journos that use the term "moneyball" don't even understand it. Most of the time they link it to buying young talented players, buy cheap sell expensive. Which is what most clubs have been doing since long before Billy Beane was even born or Bill James first started publishing his own stats. So by their standards Benteke is a "moneyball" signing. As was Platt, Yorke etc.

The closest example to sabermetrics being used would be Liverpool with Downing (most crosses) and Carroll (headed goals). It wasn't moneyball as they ended up spending £55m on them, and they quickly found out it doesn't work that way in football anyway.

Spurs were using it as well.It really isn't a very good advert for it.

[Toronto Villa]

Amavi, Gana, Vertout, Traore all look like bloody good players to me.

Sounds like the manager doesn't think so which is part of the problem and an easy get out for the club when it goes tits up.

Yep, he's getting his excuses in because he knows the end is near.

[PeterWithesShin]

If someone can't work out how to make the most of talented players then that sounds like an issue with the manager more than the players. IMO any way.

Too right it is but if the manager doesn't fancy the player to play in the system the manager wants that is a big problem for the club.
The problem is scouting this way doesn't make allowances for the sale of play.
You can bet once a certain German rocks up in Merseyside the first thing he will do is do it his way.

If they were genuinely using moneyball/sabermetrics then absolutely the style of play would be taken into account. The whole point of it is to sign players that statistically will be doing exactly what you want them to do. Billy Beane wasn't after a HR slugger that struck out a lot and never walked, he wanted the Greek God of Walks as OBP was the main thing he wanted.

[Toronto Villa]

Correct he wanted players who did a lot of things well, because he knew he couldn't get superstars. So getting players on base often made it easier for teams to score runs without getting home runs. You could essentially chip away at the scoreboard. It also put immense pressure on opposing pitchers. It works as a concept or theory in small markets with low revenue, or those sides who couldn't compete with the bigger sides. But it's not like Oakland has made the playoffs that often and they've never won the World Series. Not everything can be achieved through analytics. Sometimes you just need better talent and that costs money.

[bertlambshank]

Amavi, Gana, Vertout, Traore all look like bloody good players to me.

Sounds like the manager doesn't think so which is part of the problem and an easy get out for the club when it goes tits up.

Yep, he's getting his excuses in because he knows the end is near.

Of course he is and I have always said Sherwood is a chancer from the start but I'm more worried about yet again the direction of the club more than the manager.

[PeterWithesShin]

There is little evidence Spurs were Moneyballing, they were simply buying talented youngsters so the media tagged them as a Moneyball side as it's catchy. They may have used some computer data as well, that is not the same as being a sabermetrics or moneyball team. I bet as far as half these 'journalists' are concerned, having a list of player names on a computer because you are keeping an eye on their progress qualifies as sabermetrics. In fact i'd bet most that use the term won't understand it, they'll have seen the film and think, moneyball, that's a catchy thing to say a club does. They wouldn't know who the fuck Bill James was if he slapped them round the head with a copy of Baseball Abstract.

[bertlambshank]

Didn't Liverpool take half of their nerd squad?

[PeterWithesShin]

Correct he wanted players who did a lot of things well, because he knew he couldn't get superstars. So getting players on base often made it easier for teams to score runs without getting home runs. You could essentially chip away at the scoreboard. It also put immense pressure on opposing pitchers. It works as a concept or theory in small markets with low revenue, or those sides who couldn't compete with the bigger sides. But it's not like Oakland has made the playoffs that often and they've never won the World Series. Not everything can be achieved through analytics. Sometimes you just need better talent and that costs money.

I did like his reliever trick though. Keep bringing on some schmuck you don't want for easy saves, then trade him as an ace closer for players you do really want, and stiff someone with a closer who actually isn't much cop. That was genius.

[passitsideways]

Correct he wanted players who did a lot of things well, because he knew he couldn't get superstars. So getting players on base often made it easier for teams to score runs without getting home runs. You could essentially chip away at the scoreboard. It also put immense pressure on opposing pitchers. It works as a concept or theory in small markets with low revenue, or those sides who couldn't compete with the bigger sides. But it's not like Oakland has made the playoffs that often and they've never won the World Series. Not everything can be achieved through analytics. Sometimes you just need better talent and that costs money.

I think you also have to talk about player development as well, both at youth and first-team level; the latter seemed to be a massive problem under Lambert, where "young and hungry players" would turn up and never get better. Oakland haven't been quite as successful recently because teams with more money have started to catch on with the advantages to be gained from analytics, but when they have, it's arguably been because they've done very well with developing players with limited pedigree into genuine contributors. Same with St. Louis, who have been perenially successful without being particularly rich either.

[Ads]

If someone can't work out how to make the most of talented players then that sounds like an issue with the manager more than the players. IMO any way.

Too right it is but if the manager doesn't fancy the player to play in the system the manager wants that is a big problem for the club.
The problem is scouting this way doesn't make allowances for the style of play.
You can bet once a certain German rocks up in Merseyside the first thing he will do is do it his way.

Really? You think Klopp went and watched second division Japanese games to sign Kagawa?

[VillaAlways]

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-3263913/Aston-Villa-boss-Tim-Sherwood-concerned-untested-foreign-signings-not-adapt-quickly-avoid-relegation-battle-missing-preferred-targets.html?ITO=1490&ns_mchannel=rss&ns_campaign=1490

Shoot me for linking the heil

I like this line:-

"Many supporters have criticised Sherwood's tactics at times but the Villa manager has insisted he cannot leave a losing team unchanged"

He also can't leave a winning side unchanged either

[Dave]

Does anybody think sabermetrics are all a club uses when anyone with a basic grasp of it knows it has limited use in football compared to its use in baseball.

It's widely used in American sport no reason an American owner wouldn't think it would work over here.I can think of 2 football clubs with American owners who know so little about football they would probably give it a punt,and pay a wad of cash not only to use the system,but put the people in place to use it.
I would guess it comes in cheaper then having a worldwide scouting network which any top club should have.

It is just lazy journalism. I bet most of the journos that use the term "moneyball" don't even understand it. Most of the time they link it to buying young talented players, buy cheap sell expensive. Which is what most clubs have been doing since long before Billy Beane was even born or Bill James first started publishing his own stats. So by their standards Benteke is a "moneyball" signing. As was Platt, Yorke etc.

The closest example to sabermetrics being used would be Liverpool with Downing (most crosses) and Carroll (headed goals). It wasn't moneyball as they ended up spending £55m on them, and they quickly found out it doesn't work that way in football anyway.

Spurs were using it as well.It really isn't a very good advert for it.

How were Spurs using it? Clue - they weren't, which isn't really a very good advert for the point that you're trying to make.

The closest example of the underlying idea that I can think of in football at the moment are Ipswich - identifying cheap or free players (they've spent less than half a million in total over the last three seasons on transfer fees) who have been overlooked elsewhere for whatever reason and turning them into a coherent team that is greater than those constituent parts would originally suggest.

Your posts seem to indicate you think that "somebody other than the manager identifying a transfer target = Moneyball". Which is not even close to the truth.