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Feel free to merge if topic covered elsewhere.
Another view point
Three seasons ago Swansea came calling at Villa Park and wowed people with their possession football, followed by a few more.
"Why can't we do that?"
"Sick of our 'Hoofball'"
Were a couple of comments.
Several posters on here, including myself, stated that Villa fans aren't patient enough for that style.
Since then a big gripe of some has always been that we always 'Lump it up field to Benteke', 'Can't keep the ball down' etc
Over the last four or five games we have now started to keep possession and not 'Just lump it up to Benteke' and the fans aren't happy with it, and the fans are now shouting to 'Get it up field'
However, Just like Swansea we haven't got the player with the killer pass, but, where as Swansea have wingers we rely on fullbacks to do this job. Cissokho can't seem to go past people, and, as well as he's done, Hutton is no Gidman or Swain.
I actually think with the right signings in Jan we could see a considerable improvement.
However, two wingers / wingbacks and a midfield playmaker are probably too much to ask for.
Believe me, I've been as bored as everyone else over the last three home games, but I always try and look beyond and for positives.
Lambert is right in saying that when teams come for a point, and sit deep, it's always going to be difficult. Even Man C and Chelsea have struggled at times against 10 man defences. Where as they have the players to eventually deal with it we haven't.
As mentioned, these are just my thoughts from another perspective -
Feel free to merge if topic covered elsewhere.
Another view point
Three seasons ago Swansea came calling at Villa Park and wowed people with their possession football, followed by a few more.
"Why can't we do that?"
"Sick of our 'Hoofball'"
Were a couple of comments.
Several posters on here, including myself, stated that Villa fans aren't patient enough for that style.
Since then a big gripe of some has always been that we always 'Lump it up field to Benteke', 'Can't keep the ball down' etc
Over the last four or five games we have now started to keep possession and not 'Just lump it up to Benteke' and the fans aren't happy with it, and the fans are now shouting to 'Get it up field'
However, Just like Swansea we haven't got the player with the killer pass, but, where as Swansea have wingers we rely on fullbacks to do this job. Cissokho can't seem to go past people, and, as well as he's done, Hutton is no Gidman or Swain.
I actually think with the right signings in Jan we could see a considerable improvement.
However, two wingers / wingbacks and a midfield playmaker are probably too much to ask for.
Believe me, I've been as bored as everyone else over the last three home games, but I always try and look beyond and for positives.
Lambert is right in saying that when teams come for a point, and sit deep, it's always going to be difficult. Even Man C and Chelsea have struggled at times against 10 man defences. Where as they have the players to eventually deal with it we haven't.
As mentioned, these are just my thoughts from another perspective
Made similar comments after the Palace boreathon - the difference is that Swansea also played exciting football at other times - we didn't and don't. It's not exactly like watching Arsenal try to walk the ball in is it?
Totally agree about the signings. -
It requires width and for the midfield to hit the box. To do that, you need to change the way our midfield plays both personnel and shape wise.
You don’t need three players doing the same job. Pick Sanchez and Delph and leave the middle of the park at that. Then pick somebody more advanced than those two whose job it is to actually get close to a forward for once and hit the penalty area.
We consistently play a flat three and that will always make it very hard when you have organised ranks of defenders and midfielders sitting in front of you.
If you play with widemen, then they must have ability on the ball and not just be relatively quick forwards forced wide. This means you don’t play Gabby or Weimann wide.
I think that would help.
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Year 1 Results were a bit "meh" with most feeling he needed time
Year 2 Defence was a shambles and he needed to sort it out as we shipped goals like no other team although we had a striker in top form which helped considerably
Year 3. We have the 4th best defence in the league but now out top striker is isolated due to a reversing midfield.
I can see the thinking and with limited funds he is actually doing ok ish. I just can't stand watching the shite that we have at the moment. Even the brilliant Barcelona side stared to bore everyone with football where 3/4 quick passes were replaced with 100 slow ones. -
Swansea still play pretty much the same way, but have a variety of outlets, mainly wingers like Dyer and Routledge who add bursts of pace and get in behind defences, and a clever striker in Bony (& before him Michu) to finish off the build-up or create their own. We often see Benteke creating his own chances and it was no great shock that the ball to Benteke for his goal yesterday came from someone with imagination and prepared to risk/try/gamble on a chance - Sanchez.
Our build up through wing-backs is too laboured and predictable, so easy to defend.
Our build up through the middle usually results in running into a wall of defenders, so we pass it back and do exactly the same thing again.
We need a few more outlets/variety to ADD to the passing game. -
Passing the ball to a players feet is easy. Passing a ball into space encouraging movement is what Swansea, and othe good footballing teams play. We don't do that. That's the problem
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Nigel, I completely agree with half of your post. I have hated the "on the break" hoofball we have been playing so was relieved about the change of style, ive always felt we have the players to do it quite well. I think the issue is that we are doing most of it in our own half or just past the halfway line, teams are happy for us to do it here. As soon as we get close to the opposition midfield it breaks down. Look at Arsenal or Swansea, everytime a man has the ball there are 2-3 short pass options on and almost always at least 1 of them is a forward ball. They all come towards the ball, make runs, one touch interchanges etc. Generally speaking, that is not what we are seeing at VP. we keep going sidewards and backwards untill it works its way out to the fullbacks who then have to carry 15yards, beat a couple of men and swing a cross in under pressure.
If this is the way he wants us to play, we have to go the whole hog, commit men to run through the lines and try slide rule passes, not this safely safely half arsed approach.
Maybe its a fear built up of knowing we are still in a relegation fight for the fourth year running or that he is only a couple of defeats away from calls for his head again but for me its feels like an "emperors new clothes" version of what Swansea do. -
Feel free to merge if topic covered elsewhere.
Another view point
Three seasons ago Swansea came calling at Villa Park and wowed people with their possession football, followed by a few more.
"Why can't we do that?"
"Sick of our 'Hoofball'"
Were a couple of comments.
Several posters on here, including myself, stated that Villa fans aren't patient enough for that style.
Since then a big gripe of some has always been that we always 'Lump it up field to Benteke', 'Can't keep the ball down' etc
Over the last four or five games we have now started to keep possession and not 'Just lump it up to Benteke' and the fans aren't happy with it, and the fans are now shouting to 'Get it up field'
However, Just like Swansea we haven't got the player with the killer pass, but, where as Swansea have wingers we rely on fullbacks to do this job. Cissokho can't seem to go past people, and, as well as he's done, Hutton is no Gidman or Swain.
I actually think with the right signings in Jan we could see a considerable improvement.
However, two wingers / wingbacks and a midfield playmaker are probably too much to ask for.
Believe me, I've been as bored as everyone else over the last three home games, but I always try and look beyond and for positives.
Lambert is right in saying that when teams come for a point, and sit deep, it's always going to be difficult. Even Man C and Chelsea have struggled at times against 10 man defences. Where as they have the players to eventually deal with it we haven't.
As mentioned, these are just my thoughts from another perspective
Therein lies the problem. When the ball arrives at the full-back, they are pretty much always isolated against one or two defenders. As solid as they are defensively, neither Hutton or Cissokho are the type that can beat players, so they invariably go back into midfield or further back to the centre halves. We end being trapped in a cycle of Sanchez or Westwood getting the ball off the centre halves, playing it to the full-back and then the full-back playing it back to them or back to the defence. While all this is happening, we have five other players standing motionless watching it all going on. -
Year 2 Defence was a shambles and he needed to sort it out as we shipped goals like no other team although we had a striker in top form which helped considerably
Benteke's top form was in his first year. Year 2 he was in and out of form and then injured. -
It requires width and for the midfield to hit the box. To do that, you need to change the way our midfield plays both personnel and shape wise.
You don’t need three players doing the same job. Pick Sanchez and Delph and leave the middle of the park at that. Then pick somebody more advanced than those two whose job it is to actually get close to a forward for once and hit the penalty area.
We consistently play a flat three and that will always make it very hard when you have organised ranks of defenders and midfielders sitting in front of you.
If you play with widemen, then they must have ability on the ball and not just be relatively quick forwards forced wide. This means you don’t play Gabby or Weimann wide.
I think that would help.
Totally agree Ads. Sanchez and Delph are athletic enough to play together in a two in midfield, which would allow another midfielder to play in front of them (if Cole could last the pace then he could be the choice).
It would mean reverting to a 4-2-3-1 formation and we would probably need to bring in players in the three attacking spots behind Benteke. -
Passing the ball to a players feet is easy. Passing a ball into space encouraging movement is what Swansea, and othe good footballing teams play. We don't do that. That's the problem
Add to that they do it with pace. You'd have thought we are playing in 100º heat rather than the freezing cold, the way we're trying to save energy. -
That's the formation I want. Lambert needs to be more open to playing wingers though and having them mix their play up. If we do play a wideman, like Zogbia for example, he only ever looks to come in field. We use our fullbacks to provide almost all our width, but we really should be mixing it up. We rarely see Gabby running at fullbacks. He'd get some joy if he did.It requires width and for the midfield to hit the box. To do that, you need to change the way our midfield plays both personnel and shape wise.
You don’t need three players doing the same job. Pick Sanchez and Delph and leave the middle of the park at that. Then pick somebody more advanced than those two whose job it is to actually get close to a forward for once and hit the penalty area.
We consistently play a flat three and that will always make it very hard when you have organised ranks of defenders and midfielders sitting in front of you.
If you play with widemen, then they must have ability on the ball and not just be relatively quick forwards forced wide. This means you don’t play Gabby or Weimann wide.
I think that would help.
Totally agree Ads. Sanchez and Delph are athletic enough to play together in a two in midfield, which would allow another midfielder to play in front of them (if Cole could last the pace then he could be the choice).
It would mean reverting to a 4-2-3-1 formation and we would probably need to bring in players in the three attacking spots behind Benteke.
We need a couple of wide players and we need Lambert to play them as wide men too. He won't though. -
The formation is the wrong thing to focus on and becomes a red herring in discussions like this, much like the possession stats were always a red herring. What we don't do well is give the player on the ball suitable options and that's down to 2 things:
1. We don't train on moving into space and spotting runs early, like any skill/technique based ability mastering something in a pressure-free environment is the key to being able to replicate it when you're under pressure. Right now our movement is predictable to the opposition or completely random and gets missed because the team just aren't used to the runs they're making.
2. The linked issue is that it appears that this lack of training around movement is intentional because Lambert doesn't want the players moving too far out of their positions other than to come deeper. It's pure safety first football so we either punt it long to 1-2 players and hope for the best or we pass it around among a bunch of players who have very set areas of the pitch they're allowed to be in and the 1-2 we were punting it too before end up being passengers or coming far too deep to be useful.
If Lambert doesn't like being booed and wants us to praise this new style then he needs to address both of these, we need players moving and finding space , and more importantly creating space for each other. The one period where he looked like he'd nailed it was when Gabby and Weimann were looking to move into the space Benteke was creating by drawing an extra defender, but because that meant they weren't there to defend if we lost the ball they were stopped from doing it.
If I start seeing some signs that he's addressing this then I'll accept this as a genuine new style, until then I'm just seeing this as Lambert sticking 2 fingers up at the fans who complained about the lack of possession in a "Look I did what you wanted and we still can't score" way. -
Our manager is moaning in the press about calls for his head at the end of yesterday's game. Claiming it is affecting the players - maybe it did and made them try a bit harder to get the goal. But maybe Mr Lambert should ask himself why. Or ask himself why we haven't given him more stick. Despite the dross he has helped create the VP turnstiles have had over 80,000 people pass through them in the last week.
This new style of play is presumably his idea. So he should take some responsibility. And accept that some of us will blame him for the lack of entertainment.
There are some good signs. No goals conceded. Perhaps more by luck than judgement, we have played 3 poor teams who find scoring almost as hard as we do.
The defense is better - perhaps because we have players who are quite good at their job, playing well, and fitting into this new system - which to be fair does not expose them too often, and when opponents do make a break - they have been quick to cover each other.
They are also given cover by Sanchez who prevents a lot of stuff coming through the centre, and gives them an outlet to pass to which does not immediately pass the ball back to them, as used to happen a lot earlier in the season.
Where it all goes wrong is further forward. Yesterday they started with Westwood in a back 3, pushing the full backs forward, which might have worked had there been a plan to support the full backs when they got forward, but there wasn't. With only Benteke anywhere near the box - we had a group of headless chickens - passing the ball about but getting nowhere. Cleverley, Grealish, Cole, all should have had the freedom to try and create things but didn't do anything positive.
Moving Westwood forward to work with Sanchez again should have created a base for the others to be more offensive, putting N'Zogbia on had limited impact (except giving Hutton some support), but this new system should give the forward players the opportunity to attack. Why they don't is the question that needs to be answered.
The full backs going forward need support and targets in the box to aim for. Grealish and Cissokho did try to work together, Hutton in the first half was on his own.
If we have
Hutton - Okere - Clark - Cissokho
Sanchez - Westwood
N'zogbia Grealish
(or Bacuna?)
?
Benteke
The? is who plays there and what role they play.
Cole ? Trying to link midfield to Benteke ? Personally don't like this - but it did work for a while at Burnley (1st half)
Or Weimann/Gabby trying to support and also get in the box as a target?
Or better still get another forward who can get in the box and score goals. Bent was not the answer (too slow these days) but if we could find somebody then we might stand a chance.
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Moving towards passing the ball and retaining possession makes perfect sense, but it's only part of what you need to do. You need that passing to be sharp and incisive and you need to have movement off the ball. We are doing neither of those things and as a consequence we create no space to threaten the opposition.