Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: nigel on January 05, 2015, 12:13:02 PM
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Feel free to merge if topic covered elsewhere.
Another view point
Three seasons ago Swansea came calling at Villa Park and wowed people with their possession football, followed by a few more.
"Why can't we do that?"
"Sick of our 'Hoofball'"
Were a couple of comments.
Several posters on here, including myself, stated that Villa fans aren't patient enough for that style.
Since then a big gripe of some has always been that we always 'Lump it up field to Benteke', 'Can't keep the ball down' etc
Over the last four or five games we have now started to keep possession and not 'Just lump it up to Benteke' and the fans aren't happy with it, and the fans are now shouting to 'Get it up field' :)
However, Just like Swansea we haven't got the player with the killer pass, but, where as Swansea have wingers we rely on fullbacks to do this job. Cissokho can't seem to go past people, and, as well as he's done, Hutton is no Gidman or Swain.
I actually think with the right signings in Jan we could see a considerable improvement.
However, two wingers / wingbacks and a midfield playmaker are probably too much to ask for.
Believe me, I've been as bored as everyone else over the last three home games, but I always try and look beyond and for positives.
Lambert is right in saying that when teams come for a point, and sit deep, it's always going to be difficult. Even Man C and Chelsea have struggled at times against 10 man defences. Where as they have the players to eventually deal with it we haven't.
As mentioned, these are just my thoughts from another perspective
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Feel free to merge if topic covered elsewhere.
Another view point
Three seasons ago Swansea came calling at Villa Park and wowed people with their possession football, followed by a few more.
"Why can't we do that?"
"Sick of our 'Hoofball'"
Were a couple of comments.
Several posters on here, including myself, stated that Villa fans aren't patient enough for that style.
Since then a big gripe of some has always been that we always 'Lump it up field to Benteke', 'Can't keep the ball down' etc
Over the last four or five games we have now started to keep possession and not 'Just lump it up to Benteke' and the fans aren't happy with it, and the fans are now shouting to 'Get it up field' :)
However, Just like Swansea we haven't got the player with the killer pass, but, where as Swansea have wingers we rely on fullbacks to do this job. Cissokho can't seem to go past people, and, as well as he's done, Hutton is no Gidman or Swain.
I actually think with the right signings in Jan we could see a considerable improvement.
However, two wingers / wingbacks and a midfield playmaker are probably too much to ask for.
Believe me, I've been as bored as everyone else over the last three home games, but I always try and look beyond and for positives.
Lambert is right in saying that when teams come for a point, and sit deep, it's always going to be difficult. Even Man C and Chelsea have struggled at times against 10 man defences. Where as they have the players to eventually deal with it we haven't.
As mentioned, these are just my thoughts from another perspective
Made similar comments after the Palace boreathon - the difference is that Swansea also played exciting football at other times - we didn't and don't. It's not exactly like watching Arsenal try to walk the ball in is it?
Totally agree about the signings.
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It requires width and for the midfield to hit the box. To do that, you need to change the way our midfield plays both personnel and shape wise.
You don’t need three players doing the same job. Pick Sanchez and Delph and leave the middle of the park at that. Then pick somebody more advanced than those two whose job it is to actually get close to a forward for once and hit the penalty area.
We consistently play a flat three and that will always make it very hard when you have organised ranks of defenders and midfielders sitting in front of you.
If you play with widemen, then they must have ability on the ball and not just be relatively quick forwards forced wide. This means you don’t play Gabby or Weimann wide.
I think that would help.
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Year 1 Results were a bit "meh" with most feeling he needed time
Year 2 Defence was a shambles and he needed to sort it out as we shipped goals like no other team although we had a striker in top form which helped considerably
Year 3. We have the 4th best defence in the league but now out top striker is isolated due to a reversing midfield.
I can see the thinking and with limited funds he is actually doing ok ish. I just can't stand watching the shite that we have at the moment. Even the brilliant Barcelona side stared to bore everyone with football where 3/4 quick passes were replaced with 100 slow ones.
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Swansea still play pretty much the same way, but have a variety of outlets, mainly wingers like Dyer and Routledge who add bursts of pace and get in behind defences, and a clever striker in Bony (& before him Michu) to finish off the build-up or create their own. We often see Benteke creating his own chances and it was no great shock that the ball to Benteke for his goal yesterday came from someone with imagination and prepared to risk/try/gamble on a chance - Sanchez.
Our build up through wing-backs is too laboured and predictable, so easy to defend.
Our build up through the middle usually results in running into a wall of defenders, so we pass it back and do exactly the same thing again.
We need a few more outlets/variety to ADD to the passing game.
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Passing the ball to a players feet is easy. Passing a ball into space encouraging movement is what Swansea, and othe good footballing teams play. We don't do that. That's the problem
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Nigel, I completely agree with half of your post. I have hated the "on the break" hoofball we have been playing so was relieved about the change of style, ive always felt we have the players to do it quite well. I think the issue is that we are doing most of it in our own half or just past the halfway line, teams are happy for us to do it here. As soon as we get close to the opposition midfield it breaks down. Look at Arsenal or Swansea, everytime a man has the ball there are 2-3 short pass options on and almost always at least 1 of them is a forward ball. They all come towards the ball, make runs, one touch interchanges etc. Generally speaking, that is not what we are seeing at VP. we keep going sidewards and backwards untill it works its way out to the fullbacks who then have to carry 15yards, beat a couple of men and swing a cross in under pressure.
If this is the way he wants us to play, we have to go the whole hog, commit men to run through the lines and try slide rule passes, not this safely safely half arsed approach.
Maybe its a fear built up of knowing we are still in a relegation fight for the fourth year running or that he is only a couple of defeats away from calls for his head again but for me its feels like an "emperors new clothes" version of what Swansea do.
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Feel free to merge if topic covered elsewhere.
Another view point
Three seasons ago Swansea came calling at Villa Park and wowed people with their possession football, followed by a few more.
"Why can't we do that?"
"Sick of our 'Hoofball'"
Were a couple of comments.
Several posters on here, including myself, stated that Villa fans aren't patient enough for that style.
Since then a big gripe of some has always been that we always 'Lump it up field to Benteke', 'Can't keep the ball down' etc
Over the last four or five games we have now started to keep possession and not 'Just lump it up to Benteke' and the fans aren't happy with it, and the fans are now shouting to 'Get it up field' :)
However, Just like Swansea we haven't got the player with the killer pass, but, where as Swansea have wingers we rely on fullbacks to do this job. Cissokho can't seem to go past people, and, as well as he's done, Hutton is no Gidman or Swain.
I actually think with the right signings in Jan we could see a considerable improvement.
However, two wingers / wingbacks and a midfield playmaker are probably too much to ask for.
Believe me, I've been as bored as everyone else over the last three home games, but I always try and look beyond and for positives.
Lambert is right in saying that when teams come for a point, and sit deep, it's always going to be difficult. Even Man C and Chelsea have struggled at times against 10 man defences. Where as they have the players to eventually deal with it we haven't.
As mentioned, these are just my thoughts from another perspective
Therein lies the problem. When the ball arrives at the full-back, they are pretty much always isolated against one or two defenders. As solid as they are defensively, neither Hutton or Cissokho are the type that can beat players, so they invariably go back into midfield or further back to the centre halves. We end being trapped in a cycle of Sanchez or Westwood getting the ball off the centre halves, playing it to the full-back and then the full-back playing it back to them or back to the defence. While all this is happening, we have five other players standing motionless watching it all going on.
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Year 2 Defence was a shambles and he needed to sort it out as we shipped goals like no other team although we had a striker in top form which helped considerably
Benteke's top form was in his first year. Year 2 he was in and out of form and then injured.
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It requires width and for the midfield to hit the box. To do that, you need to change the way our midfield plays both personnel and shape wise.
You don’t need three players doing the same job. Pick Sanchez and Delph and leave the middle of the park at that. Then pick somebody more advanced than those two whose job it is to actually get close to a forward for once and hit the penalty area.
We consistently play a flat three and that will always make it very hard when you have organised ranks of defenders and midfielders sitting in front of you.
If you play with widemen, then they must have ability on the ball and not just be relatively quick forwards forced wide. This means you don’t play Gabby or Weimann wide.
I think that would help.
Totally agree Ads. Sanchez and Delph are athletic enough to play together in a two in midfield, which would allow another midfielder to play in front of them (if Cole could last the pace then he could be the choice).
It would mean reverting to a 4-2-3-1 formation and we would probably need to bring in players in the three attacking spots behind Benteke.
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Passing the ball to a players feet is easy. Passing a ball into space encouraging movement is what Swansea, and othe good footballing teams play. We don't do that. That's the problem
Add to that they do it with pace. You'd have thought we are playing in 100º heat rather than the freezing cold, the way we're trying to save energy.
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It requires width and for the midfield to hit the box. To do that, you need to change the way our midfield plays both personnel and shape wise.
You don’t need three players doing the same job. Pick Sanchez and Delph and leave the middle of the park at that. Then pick somebody more advanced than those two whose job it is to actually get close to a forward for once and hit the penalty area.
We consistently play a flat three and that will always make it very hard when you have organised ranks of defenders and midfielders sitting in front of you.
If you play with widemen, then they must have ability on the ball and not just be relatively quick forwards forced wide. This means you don’t play Gabby or Weimann wide.
I think that would help.
Totally agree Ads. Sanchez and Delph are athletic enough to play together in a two in midfield, which would allow another midfielder to play in front of them (if Cole could last the pace then he could be the choice).
It would mean reverting to a 4-2-3-1 formation and we would probably need to bring in players in the three attacking spots behind Benteke.
That's the formation I want. Lambert needs to be more open to playing wingers though and having them mix their play up. If we do play a wideman, like Zogbia for example, he only ever looks to come in field. We use our fullbacks to provide almost all our width, but we really should be mixing it up. We rarely see Gabby running at fullbacks. He'd get some joy if he did.
We need a couple of wide players and we need Lambert to play them as wide men too. He won't though.
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The formation is the wrong thing to focus on and becomes a red herring in discussions like this, much like the possession stats were always a red herring. What we don't do well is give the player on the ball suitable options and that's down to 2 things:
1. We don't train on moving into space and spotting runs early, like any skill/technique based ability mastering something in a pressure-free environment is the key to being able to replicate it when you're under pressure. Right now our movement is predictable to the opposition or completely random and gets missed because the team just aren't used to the runs they're making.
2. The linked issue is that it appears that this lack of training around movement is intentional because Lambert doesn't want the players moving too far out of their positions other than to come deeper. It's pure safety first football so we either punt it long to 1-2 players and hope for the best or we pass it around among a bunch of players who have very set areas of the pitch they're allowed to be in and the 1-2 we were punting it too before end up being passengers or coming far too deep to be useful.
If Lambert doesn't like being booed and wants us to praise this new style then he needs to address both of these, we need players moving and finding space , and more importantly creating space for each other. The one period where he looked like he'd nailed it was when Gabby and Weimann were looking to move into the space Benteke was creating by drawing an extra defender, but because that meant they weren't there to defend if we lost the ball they were stopped from doing it.
If I start seeing some signs that he's addressing this then I'll accept this as a genuine new style, until then I'm just seeing this as Lambert sticking 2 fingers up at the fans who complained about the lack of possession in a "Look I did what you wanted and we still can't score" way.
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Our manager is moaning in the press about calls for his head at the end of yesterday's game. Claiming it is affecting the players - maybe it did and made them try a bit harder to get the goal. But maybe Mr Lambert should ask himself why. Or ask himself why we haven't given him more stick. Despite the dross he has helped create the VP turnstiles have had over 80,000 people pass through them in the last week.
This new style of play is presumably his idea. So he should take some responsibility. And accept that some of us will blame him for the lack of entertainment.
There are some good signs. No goals conceded. Perhaps more by luck than judgement, we have played 3 poor teams who find scoring almost as hard as we do.
The defense is better - perhaps because we have players who are quite good at their job, playing well, and fitting into this new system - which to be fair does not expose them too often, and when opponents do make a break - they have been quick to cover each other.
They are also given cover by Sanchez who prevents a lot of stuff coming through the centre, and gives them an outlet to pass to which does not immediately pass the ball back to them, as used to happen a lot earlier in the season.
Where it all goes wrong is further forward. Yesterday they started with Westwood in a back 3, pushing the full backs forward, which might have worked had there been a plan to support the full backs when they got forward, but there wasn't. With only Benteke anywhere near the box - we had a group of headless chickens - passing the ball about but getting nowhere. Cleverley, Grealish, Cole, all should have had the freedom to try and create things but didn't do anything positive.
Moving Westwood forward to work with Sanchez again should have created a base for the others to be more offensive, putting N'Zogbia on had limited impact (except giving Hutton some support), but this new system should give the forward players the opportunity to attack. Why they don't is the question that needs to be answered.
The full backs going forward need support and targets in the box to aim for. Grealish and Cissokho did try to work together, Hutton in the first half was on his own.
If we have
Hutton - Okere - Clark - Cissokho
Sanchez - Westwood
N'zogbia Grealish
(or Bacuna?)
???????
Benteke
The ??????? is who plays there and what role they play.
Cole ? Trying to link midfield to Benteke ? Personally don't like this - but it did work for a while at Burnley (1st half)
Or Weimann/Gabby trying to support and also get in the box as a target?
Or better still get another forward who can get in the box and score goals. Bent was not the answer (too slow these days) but if we could find somebody then we might stand a chance.
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Moving towards passing the ball and retaining possession makes perfect sense, but it's only part of what you need to do. You need that passing to be sharp and incisive and you need to have movement off the ball. We are doing neither of those things and as a consequence we create no space to threaten the opposition.
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The problem with Lambert's interpretation of a passing / possession game is that he doesn't seem to understand that that doesn't just mean passing to players who remaining mostly rooted to a particular spot, it also means movement off the ball to open up options to the man in possession.
This has been a failing of ours for several years now, but it is currently pretty chronic.
I am glad we're having more possession, but he has got to realise, it isn't just about stats (and, it is interesting, i have to say, that after spending so long telling us he doesn't pay much attention to stats, now the possession ones look better, he seems to have started to pay attention)
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Part of the issue right now is that many of the players Lambert has signed to date were signed to play previously employed systems. Now, if he really wants this new system to work then he will need to go a different route in his player acquisition strategy. It also begs the question, had he played this system all along would Benteke even have been signed in the first place?
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I am glad we're having more possession, but he has got to realise, it isn't just about stats (and, it is interesting, i have to say, that after spending so long telling us he doesn't pay much attention to stats, now the possession ones look better, he seems to have started to pay attention)
I noticed that too. For me, contradicting himself like that it just another sign that he's lost grip of the wheel.
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Our build up through wing-backs is too laboured and predictable, so easy to defend.
Our build up through the middle usually results in running into a wall of defenders, so we pass it back and do exactly the same thing again.
This is where I see the problem. All of the managers have had a look at us and plan their approach appropriately. Swansea scored, we had most of the possession but they were happy in absorbing the pressure knowing that we were unlikely to hurt them while boring the pants off everybody. Similarly with Sunderland and Palace except that neither of them were good enough to score. We eventually broke through yesterday but that might not have happened against a better side.
The tactics may one day prove effective, with some change in personnel.
The fact remains though that he's had quite a long time to establish a style of play and using this system isn't going to be the answer.
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Passing the ball to a players feet is easy. Passing a ball into space encouraging movement is what Swansea, and othe good footballing teams play. We don't do that. That's the problem
Agree.
Three or four times yesterday stand out for me:
Twice Sanchez, once or twice Cole, they played a great ball into space, but the runner was too slow off the mark, only to be left with the "Crap pass" ringing from the fans.
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The key for the possession game to work is for me good movement. Weimann for all his critics does move and makes himself available. Gabby on the other hand moves behind defenders making it impossible to find him with a pass as opposed to moving into space. I would love to know what has happened to Sissoko's crossing? First few games of the season without Benteke he delivered some peach crosses for a decent CF, now he barely beats the first man. If we had two good overlapping fullbacks that could deliver decent crosses that would be a bonus. In addition we need a midfielder to ghost into the box as Ian Taylor used to. That is my biggest criticism of our midfielders and something I had hoped Cleverley would bring to the table as he used to get a few goals when at Watford on loan.
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The key for the possession game to work is for me good movement. Weimann for all his critics does move and makes himself available. Gabby on the other hand moves behind defenders making it impossible to find him with a pass as opposed to moving into space. I would love to know what has happened to Sissoko's crossing? First few games of the season without Benteke he delivered some peach crosses for a decent CF, now he barely beats the first man. If we had two good overlapping fullbacks that could deliver decent crosses that would be a bonus. In addition we need a midfielder to ghost into the box as Ian Taylor used to. That is my biggest criticism of our midfielders and something I had hoped Cleverley would bring to the table as he used to get a few goals when at Watford on loan.
I'm sorry, but sitting in the North Stand, it quite plain to see that the movement of those two is minimal. On the rare occasions Weimann drops off, his first touch is always backwards and he ends up playing the ball back in to midfield. I'm not sure if it is down to them not seeing the runs they should be making or the fact that they can't be bothered to make them.
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Your points about Weimann, Gabby and Cissokho are absolutely spot on W_V. Weimann does move, but as tom says his first touch is usually poor. I'm staggered at how often Gabby doesn't move that bit more - he has the experience and pace to know that this is an effective part of a player's game - yet he rarely makes himself available. In the first 20 minutes v Stoke away Cissokho had put in 2 or 3 really good crosses and I thought - "at last, some danger from an overlapping full-back who can cross a ball". I can only assume he's done it less and less since because he's been instructed to do so.
We do START to create some promising openings but the poor movement of our players off the ball and the "safety first" play exemplified by Cissokho's not crossing but passing it back and inside 25 yards to Cleverley/Westwood/Sanchez to start the process all over again, means that the opposition have flooded defence and any advantage is lost.
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Ahhh, the much vaunted 'new style of play'
A serious question, if Lambert hadn't spent the last few weeks telling us he has instigated 'a new style of play' would we really know ?
We might not smash the ball up field as much as we did a few games ago, but is that really new way of playing ?
It just sounds and looks to me like soundbites and he thinks the Villa fans are stupid or thick enough to just lap it up.
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Pass and move... Not pass and stand still.
Pass and move at pace seems light years away from the pedestrian football we currently play.
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The passing/possession game is what Lambert started us with two and a half seasons ago.
Remember seeing it at Burton in pre-season and thinking - I can see what he's trying to do here.
First game of that season at WHam was as frustrating as some of our recent games - we had the ball for what seemed like hours but didn't do anything with it.
It didn't work.
We didn't win.
We now need to build on USING the possession, not just HAVING it.
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In addition we need a midfielder to ghost into the box as Ian Taylor used to. That is my biggest criticism of our midfielders and something I had hoped Cleverley would bring to the table as he used to get a few goals when at Watford on loan.
This has been one of our biggest problems for years now. It was a failing under MON too, until he moved Milner into the middle.
Frustratingly, just before he fell ill, Stan had started playing a more 'Lampard-esque' role and was getting forward a lot more to good effect, and he'd started contributing goals. We never found a replacement for him, unfortunately.
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I agree with Paulie and the others. The hard thing, the actual 'Barca' thing, is not passing the ball to feet but moving well off it. When Cesc went there, he described how the style had moved on since his day and how all their movement had to be so precise and yet considered, like improvised clockwork. Which is, obviously, nearly impossible, but at its best it's virtually unbeatable (though having Messi helps). Lambert might have had an epiphany about how long-ball is lumping AND losing it, but it doesn't seem to have made him a more nuanced thinker about the game.
Still, it is better than before, because it's more defensively solid (oh no not again), and we're much less likely to go down now. Which, I suppose, is the ultimate objective unless/until we get a genius as manager or a new owner.
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Lambert in his first season experimented a lot with different styles, this maybe him just returning to form.
It is an improvement and what I have wanted for a while. It should be noted that keeping the ball is incredibly helpful defensively , even if you are not creating chances the opposition isn't when you are tapping it about.
What I find remarkable (not entirely linked to the latest style) is we have gone from having the worst defence in the league that did not get relegated to the 4th best. I don't say that implying Lambert is a miracle worker or that we have had some blind luck, it is just , well .... worth remarking upon :)
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Part of the issue right now is that many of the players Lambert has signed to date were signed to play previously employed systems. Now, if he really wants this new system to work then he will need to go a different route in his player acquisition strategy. It also begs the question, had he played this system all along would Benteke even have been signed in the first place?
Not sure I agree with this.
Take a look at Westwood, Bennett, Lowton, Cole etc. Would they be better employed playing as we currently do ie slow passing, relying on the fullbacks to get forward or long ball bypassing the team and getting players around Benteke.
I'd say it's how we are playing now, which makes why he bought them in the first place and then played a system that doesn't suit all the more baffling to me. That leads me to think he's just throwing mud at the wall and seeing what sticks. Nothing is planned.
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When we'd play horrible direct stuff under Lambert, I liked to think that this was a case of players not doing what he was telling them to, that it wasn't because he wanted us to play that way.
Then when Culverhouse and Karsa got sacked, there was stuff that turned up in the press, players saying that, amongst other things, they'd been training them in long ball tactics.
Again, I thought that was probably not actually true, and it was embellishment of the story by journalists.
Then we get to this point, where we have this new style, and we're hearing players talk about it on the OS almost every day. Benteke gave an interview over christmas (to a Belgian paper, I believe) in which he specifically said that the previous tactic was to launch the ball long at him, whereas now, we are trying to build up slowly from the back, and that it is markedly different.
Now, that is the bit that concerns me the most, it looks more and more like, actually, all that long ball shit, all the hopeful lumping it towards Benteke, all those matches with 25% possession where we just played hopeless 50/50 balls at best, all that nonsense, actually, it was something the manager wanted us to do, that really was his style - it was intentional.
I honestly think he's a chancer, really. I adhere to the "nice bloke" line, I bet he is, I just don't think that is anything like enough to make up for the awful results and performances.
He looks, to me, like a brilliant example of a manager with very limited technical abilities, who did well bringing a side up over a period of time, and keeping them up, but then faced a situation where he might fail, and to fail would have bigger ramifications - the bigger the club, the bigger the expectaitons, the harder the fail - and he has done precisely that, failed.
All this new style stuff, whilst admirable, he looks to me like a bloke who is just clutching at straws, doing what he has to till he gets that usual unexpected win that buys him more time.
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I think had Benteke been fit we might have seen the switch earlier. It is difficult to play this way without forwards who can hold the ball up and it is not a strength of Gabby or Andi.
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It is difficult, but it's even harder to play long-ball with a striker like Gabby or Weimann.
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We remind me of Olbiyun under Mowbray. Lots of tippy tappy possession with no end product. As someone remarked upon that team, they remind him of a lesbian. Fantastic at the foreplay but zero penetration in the box.
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Part of the issue right now is that many of the players Lambert has signed to date were signed to play previously employed systems. Now, if he really wants this new system to work then he will need to go a different route in his player acquisition strategy. It also begs the question, had he played this system all along would Benteke even have been signed in the first place?
Not sure I agree with this.
Take a look at Westwood, Bennett, Lowton, Cole etc. Would they be better employed playing as we currently do ie slow passing, relying on the fullbacks to get forward or long ball bypassing the team and getting players around Benteke.
I'd say it's how we are playing now, which makes why he bought them in the first place and then played a system that doesn't suit all the more baffling to me. That leads me to think he's just throwing mud at the wall and seeing what sticks. Nothing is planned.
We have done the passing around in triangles thing throughout his reign, it is nothing new. What is new is that we are starting the process earlier, in the first phase of play. So Brad is now rolling it sideways instead of kicking for position. The ball was coming back too quickly too often so we have decided to keep it for a bit longer before handing it over.
In fact, I have lost count of the times before the so-called new style where a player suddenly found himself with acres of space to run at and still passed it short. It is as though they have been programmed like those robotic vacuum cleaners. When Lowton made that run in the famous Sunderland game I could not believe my eyes.
I think the idea has always been to ping it around in little triangles to draw the opposition in and then uncoil like a spring and counter attack. The only time it has ever worked at home is when a team is overconfident as far I can see. If they sit back and defend competently they have a very good chance of leaving with at least a point.
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I think we'd be helped enormously by keeping a midfield base of just two, rather than continuing to do a 3 man mid where no one really takes up the mantel of breaking into the box or trying to get forward to make some penetrative passes. Lamberts 4-3-3/4-3-2-1 system has rarely worked. I'd rather we switched to a 4-2-3-1, allowing someone, either Cole, Grealish or perhaps trying Cleverley (and lighting a rocket up his arse) to play in the 10 position. In addition we need the wide players to use the flanks and go on the outside more to help out the fullbacks, and also so we don't expect all our width to come from the fullbacks.
All too often in that 3 man CM we have one player (mostly TC) who becomes utterly redundant.
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Wouldn't it be nice if we could switch to different styles/tactics as the opposition and situation dictates? Fine to be patient when there is not much on but preferably with some movement to drag defenders around a bit and an occasional killer pass to try and make something happen. But then to mix it up a bit why not play the occasional long ball into Benteke or over the top to either take the opposition by surprise or just if he is in space. Or do a quick 3-4 pass counter attack if it is the best option and on. I just don't see why a team has to stick with one approach even in a single game, especially as we don't seem capable of making any single approach work that well. It would require a bit of nous, concentration and game-reading intelligence from the players involved, and probably one, maybe two "playmaker" types to dictate the moves and set the tempo. Perhaps Lambert doesn't trust the players to be that adaptable, or maybe the players really aren't up to it, but could say Sanchez and Delph pull the strings like this if asked to?
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I'm up for the new style but I'd want to see 4231 and we need two to three more players to play in the three. The rest of the side is top half premier league for the most part. At the moment the options for the three are little better than championship standard
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Wouldn't it be nice if we could switch to different styles/tactics as the opposition and situation dictates? Fine to be patient when there is not much on but preferably with some movement to drag defenders around a bit and an occasional killer pass to try and make something happen. But then to mix it up a bit why not play the occasional long ball into Benteke or over the top to either take the opposition by surprise or just if he is in space. Or do a quick 3-4 pass counter attack if it is the best option and on. I just don't see why a team has to stick with one approach even in a single game, especially as we don't seem capable of making any single approach work that well. It would require a bit of nous, concentration and game-reading intelligence from the players involved, and probably one, maybe two "playmaker" types to dictate the moves and set the tempo. Perhaps Lambert doesn't trust the players to be that adaptable, or maybe the players really aren't up to it, but could say Sanchez and Delph pull the strings like this if asked to?
We are sadly bereft of the key qualities which you mention. No effective leadership on the pitch for starters. A definite dearth of little grey cells as well.
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It is difficult, but it's even harder to play long-ball with a striker like Gabby or Weimann.
Which is why I think we tried to play a counter attacking game, bringing teams on to us to try to get them in on the break. Clearly without much success but that appeared to me to be the general idea.
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Wouldn't it be nice if we could switch to different styles/tactics as the opposition and situation dictates? Fine to be patient when there is not much on but preferably with some movement to drag defenders around a bit and an occasional killer pass to try and make something happen. But then to mix it up a bit why not play the occasional long ball into Benteke or over the top to either take the opposition by surprise or just if he is in space. Or do a quick 3-4 pass counter attack if it is the best option and on. I just don't see why a team has to stick with one approach even in a single game, especially as we don't seem capable of making any single approach work that well. It would require a bit of nous, concentration and game-reading intelligence from the players involved, and probably one, maybe two "playmaker" types to dictate the moves and set the tempo. Perhaps Lambert doesn't trust the players to be that adaptable, or maybe the players really aren't up to it, but could say Sanchez and Delph pull the strings like this if asked to?
We are sadly bereft of the key qualities which you mention. No effective leadership on the pitch for starters. A definite dearth of little grey cells as well.
This.
And I just don't see our players enjoying what they're doing or doing it with confidence and belief.
eg: against Stoke and 'The Mighty Reds YNWA' away I could see a sense of solidity and spirit about the team that showed us (and the opposition) that we're up for it and can cope, thanks very much.
Since then we've looked scared and reticent for much of the time.
Bad vibes dude.
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I think we'd be helped enormously by keeping a midfield base of just two, rather than continuing to do a 3 man mid where no one really takes up the mantel of breaking into the box or trying to get forward to make some penetrative passes. Lamberts 4-3-3/4-3-2-1 system has rarely worked. I'd rather we switched to a 4-2-3-1, allowing someone, either Cole, Grealish or perhaps trying Cleverley (and lighting a rocket up his arse) to play in the 10 position. In addition we need the wide players to use the flanks and go on the outside more to help out the fullbacks, and also so we don't expect all our width to come from the fullbacks.
All too often in that 3 man CM we have one player (mostly TC) who becomes utterly redundant.
Ideally the 433 and 4231 should be pretty interchangeable i.e. not ridged system, after all its probably a difference of about ten meters on the pitch. What is required is the freedom for a player (or players) to make that shift and for the whole system not to collapse when they do. As others have said this player movement and game management needs practice/coaching and also good communication on the pitch. It's hard to say whether that is happening, or indeed whether the team communicate effectively.
I must admit that I was pleased to hear that Westwood was dropping into a 3 man defence on Sunday, not because it is a tactical masterstroke, but because it implies that 'something' is happening on the training ground and that the players have the autonomy to try and change things on the pitch.
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I think we'd be helped enormously by keeping a midfield base of just two, rather than continuing to do a 3 man mid where no one really takes up the mantel of breaking into the box or trying to get forward to make some penetrative passes. Lamberts 4-3-3/4-3-2-1 system has rarely worked. I'd rather we switched to a 4-2-3-1, allowing someone, either Cole, Grealish or perhaps trying Cleverley (and lighting a rocket up his arse) to play in the 10 position. In addition we need the wide players to use the flanks and go on the outside more to help out the fullbacks, and also so we don't expect all our width to come from the fullbacks.
All too often in that 3 man CM we have one player (mostly TC) who becomes utterly redundant.
Ideally the 433 and 4231 should be pretty interchangeable i.e. not ridged system, after all its probably a difference of about ten meters on the pitch. What is required is the freedom for a player (or players) to make that shift and for the whole system not to collapse when they do. As others have said this player movement and game management needs practice/coaching and also good communication on the pitch. It's hard to say whether that is happening, or indeed whether the team communicate effectively.
I must admit that I was pleased to hear that Westwood was dropping into a 3 man defence on Sunday, not because it is a tactical masterstroke, but because it implies that 'something' is happening on the training ground and that the players have the autonomy to try and change things on the pitch.
We played him there in pre-season one game and he actually relished the extra space. He was less an auxiliary defender and more like an even deeper (poor man's) Pirlo.
I doubt it would work in the Premiership though. We'd get opened up and we could find ourselves with Ash caught out as the last man if we're not careful.
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Passing the ball to a players feet is easy. Passing a ball into space encouraging movement is what Swansea, and othe good footballing teams play. We don't do that. That's the problem
We also do it extremely slowly.
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I read an interview with Guardiola, just after he started with Bayern, where he got a bit arsey with the journalist, who'd asked him if he was going to turn them into a possession based 100 pass type team like Barcelona had been.
I can't remember the exact quote but his reply was basically if the option for a quick break was on, you took it.
If you were trying to break down a packed defence, then with the players he'd got at Barcelona, the best way was the quick short passing game, but the key was varying the tempo and always using movement to try to get the opposition to overload one side of the pitch in their desperation to win the ball back. Once they'd got that overload, then quickly switch to the opposite flank to attack the space created. He was absolute in rejecting Tika Taka as a concept, as in his eyes that was just possession for the sake of it.
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It is difficult, but it's even harder to play long-ball with a striker like Gabby or Weimann.
Which is why I think we tried to play a counter attacking game, bringing teams on to us to try to get them in on the break. Clearly without much success but that appeared to me to be the general idea.
There is nothing wrong with counter attacking - look at Ferguson's Man United teams, for years they were absolutely lethal on the break.
The problem we have - which is the same limitation we had under MON, strangely - is that for us it has become the only thing we really tried to do. I wouldn't mind if we were particularly good at it, but we're not, and haven't been for ages.
I've lost count of the number of times I have seen TV pundits start talking about us, and the first thing they say is how dangerous we are on the counter attack. It just struck me as lazy and cliched. Yes, a lot of our goals came from counter attacks, but that was a reflection of it being the only thing we tried to do with any frequency, and us not really having any other way to score.
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I'm up for the new style but I'd want to see 4231 and we need two to three more players to play in the three. The rest of the side is top half premier league for the most part. At the moment the options for the three are little better than championship standard
Yep. I'm still convinced a quality attacking midfielder and at least one decent wide player would make a massive difference to the team.
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Is what exactly??....
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I'd rather see us having the majority of the ball and not scoring than having none of the ball and not scoring. You tend to concede more under the latter system.
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Passing the ball to a players feet is easy. Passing a ball into space encouraging movement is what Swansea, and othe good footballing teams play. We don't do that. That's the problem
Is the correct answer
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Teams who can't counterattack obviously lack a crucial tactic, but it seems to me that this is the difference between a tactic and a strategy - and you can't have a general strategy that your team is going to counterattack against everyone regardless, because it's too reliant on the opposition. If you're playing Swansea, and they play with a high line and will come at you, then it's forgiveable to go on the counter, because there'll be space. If, however, you're playing almost anyone else, especially at home, then you'll have no idea what to do.
In fact, it's worse than having no ideas. Counterattacking is obviously direct, because there's lots of space to pass into and you don't have to be as pinpoint as when breaking down massed defences. If, however, your whole strategy is counterattacking, then you'll find that your team is so expecting to be direct that they completely lack patience, and, failing to adapt to the actual match situation, will do the most direct thing available to them - namely, chunting it long.
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We also simply don't have the pace we once had to be effective at counter attacking. Under MON, we had players like Barry or Petrov or Milner who get the ball out quickly to the likes of Young, Gabby or Downing. Gabby is not as young or as fast as he once was and the others are gone. For a while we were lethal in counter attack coupled with a solid defence. If you have the right players for counter that can be your strategy. For the last 12 months certainly Lambert has tried to do this with slower and inferior players with the exception of the main striker who you could compare to Carew at his best under MON. It doesn't work and then when you make it the only thing you do and not recognize a need for change when it screams loudly at you, then trouble follows.
Now that he has changed, if Lambert really wants possession to work then he needs to bring in players that can not only retain and keep the opponent from getting it, but have players at the club that push the line higher up the pitch and in a variety of ways get the ball into the area. We are not only too slow right now, but we lack any real vision. The current players don't have enough ability to get the ball into Benteke, and in turn Benteke doesn't have players around him that can take some of goal scoring burden from him. The result is what we all see, and unless Benteke does something himself out of very little we just don't score and won't.
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I think calling it a 'style' is going a bit over the top
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Indeed. I've already asked the Mods if they can introduce the word filter and replace 'new style' with 'passing'.
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Brum Mail (http://www.birminghammail.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/aston-villa-players-enjoying-paul-8385227)
Aston Villa: Players enjoying Paul Lambert's new tactics, says Ashley Westwood
Stand-in captain says Villa players feel like they are progressing after recent tactical changes by boss Paul Lambert
By Gregg Evans
Aston Villa’s senior stars are fully behind Paul Lambert’s newly-introduced playing style.
The club’s first-team squad are said to be enjoying their football more than ever after the manager recently changed his tactics.
While supporters have questioned the ‘slow and sideways’ approach and slammed into Lambert and his team for their chronic lack of goals, the players are confident that a shift in fortune is just around the corner.
And despite the discontent in the stands, the spirit in the camp is surprisingly high ahead of the trip to basement boys Leicester City on Saturday.
Stand-in captain Ashley Westwood said: “The way we’ve been playing is really enjoyable.
“We’re keeping the ball and moving teams around the way that they used to do to us.
“We feel like we are progressing.
“It’s just about being patient now.”
Westwood operated in the middle of a back three against Blackpool on Saturday but was shifted into his usual deep-lying midfield position after half an hour as Villa controlled the game.
He says that the team are more comfortable dominating games rather than chasing them, and that opinion has been backed up by other top performers.
The general feeling from the team is that it’s only a matter of time before the real benefits are reaped, and in the meantime they’re happy to work on ways to make it more effective.
“What we’ve found in the last few weeks is that teams have come and sat off us,” Westwood continued.
“It’s tough to break teams down when they play like that.
“Even the likes of Chelsea and Man City struggle at times and when the top teams go abroad they have the same problems, too.
“We’ve got to be patient, keep moving the ball around and keep wearing teams out. That’s what teams did to us last year.
“We managed to do it against Blackpool in the end but that was only after we started moving the ball quicker in the second half.
“The last ten minutes we felt it was coming and in the end it did.”
Lambert will stick with the ‘new way’ at Leicester after already experimenting with the set-up away from Villa Park.
In the 1-0 defeat to Swansea on Boxing Day the claret and blues out-played their opponents and if goalkeeper Lukasz Fabiankski hadn’t been in such fine form that day they would have taken at least a point from the contest.
What’s important for Villa now is to start converting draws into wins to further distance themselves from the bottom three.
After the East Midlands trip Villa have a tough run of fixtures against Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea however there’s a feeling in the camp that those are the type of games that will suit the new style.
Westwood added: “It’s real tough when teams just put ten men behind the ball and sit on the edge of your box.
“I think the Liverpool game will be good because they will come at us.
“If we keep the ball off them the spaces will be there and hopefully we can create more chances.”
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'If we keep the ball off them the spaces will be there'. No. No they won't. Not if you're just standing still and tapping the ball to each other on the halfway line.
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'Possession football' shouldn't be seen as a style, or a way of playing, it should be something that every football team is capable of executing during certain phases of a match. Ultimately the aim of the game is to score goals. Any game-plan has to have this at the forefront of a plan. At the moment our game-plan seems to keep the ball for as long as we can and hope that Benteke produces a piece of individual brilliance at some point during the match.
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I'm sick of the players and manager rabbiting on about this "new style." It's getting on my tits. There seems to be a hideous air of acceptance guffing out of the fucking club that suggests everything is rosy at the moment. They're not the ones having to pay and watch this shit though.
Does being able to string more than five passes together really constitute a new style?
Bring me some goals, otherwise the whole bloody squad and the manager can shut their traps as far as I'm concerned. Of course Westwood is happy, he's stealing a living well above his ability.
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The 'new style' consists of Lambert realising, after two-and-a-half years, that punting the ball up field isn't necessarily a sophisticated attacking strategy in the modern game ('modern' meaning 'since 1895').
There's another really awful phrase in that Westwood interview - “we’re keeping the ball and moving teams around the way that they used to do to us." I can't quite put into words how embarrassing that is. It makes it sound like they always knew they were being moved around with ease but nobody had any ideas, until recently Lambert had a light-bulb appear over his head and cried out 'Eureka! I've got it! We'll NOT lose the ball pointlessly! We'll PASS it to each other instead!'. It's horrific.
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'If we keep the ball off them the spaces will be there'. No. No they won't. Not if you're just standing still and tapping the ball to each other on the halfway line.
Exactly. Somewhat concerning to hear that sort of thing.
Like Lambert the other day "I'm not worried about the goals, they will come". Well we've had half a season already and they haven't been magicked up in any quantity, so I don't know what makes him think that.
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I mean, we shouldn't pretend that it's not a massive improvement. But it's the kind of improvement which, if you have to make it in the first place, should disqualify you from the management business, at least as far as the top division is concerned.
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This has been done before I think but if ever art imitated life.....
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Also this bollocks about it's going to take time (even more time than the original plans that needed time before we see fruit). It's not some intricate pass and move one touch stuff at high pace that needs to be practiced and drilled in to the players, it's simple passing 10 yards sideways to a stationary player who then does the same. It's a footballing basic that a non league player can do as long as he has feet.
It's not even a new ''tactic'' it's just called playing football as opposed to playing attack vs defence.
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It also worries me that Westwood thinks the new style will be more effective against good teams such as Liverpool, Arsenal and Chelsea. To paraphrase Ferguson in his book "It's easy to beat Arsenal, you just sit back and hit them on the counter attack"
Lambert (or who ever does it for him) is good at spotting players - Westwood being a good example - but he has zero clue how to improve them through coaching and seemingly teaching his players simple tactics.
Does anyone know if there is an academic side to coaching at Villa (or any club) or is it all done on the training pitch and only becomes more theory based once players start doing their badges?
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I think calling it a 'style' is going a bit over the top
Putting on the agony putting on the style. That's what all the young folks are doing all the while. And as I look around me I sometimes have to smile....er...fill in the last line yourselves! I cant think of anything that rhymes!
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Seems to run throughout the club, the under 21's were beaten again last night 2-0 by the mighty Brighton and are having a poor season,have all the decent coaches left and left us with Lambert and one or two others?
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Interesting listening to the build up to the Everton game and they are discussing their current plight. Danny Higgenbotton, who actually speaks quite well, was saying that Evertion will be in serious trouble in the league if they continue to play the way they do, he said they need to go back to basics, the "most important thing when you're in trouble is to protect the zero". We've got the 5th best defensive record in the Prem now and certainly are protecting the zero better than we were a couple of seasons back so there is progress. We just need to start putting them in at the other end now.
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It is the ultimate realisation of fear football. Keep the ball for. 70% of the game and there are very few teams capable of beating you wih that 30%. It takes a poor starting position from a free kick from Guzan or a sending off to change that.
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It is the ultimate realisation of fear football. Keep the ball for. 70% of the game and there are very few teams capable of beating you wih that 30%. It takes a poor starting position from a free kick from Guzan or a sending off to change that.
Which ironically enough was his previous game theory.
4 letters, begins with T and ends with AT. can you guess the word yet?
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Thing is our defence looks better because the players look better. having Clark and Baker at the back for a game no longer causes fear and panic as much as it did just a season or so ago. The midfield are doing a better job of screening that back 4. Therefore, our defensive frailties have improved and had before the change of style. So, once you get that right, why not rely on the system you've got to get you wins? The counter-attacking team that we had, not the boring version this year, but the one that was capable of the odd performance or two, would thrive under a rock solid (ish) defence to bail them out if needed.
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We lack real quality players than have great first touch. Therefore we need to create space, which we are not doing by moving the ball around so slowly.
We have a really good player in Benteke but he is generally being crowded out because the ball takes so long to get to him. He is then forced into going deeper to look for the ball and it is this partly as to why his goals this season have been very good ones rather than simple tap ins or easy headers.
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Why not have a team that is good at retaining the ball (and hopefully become more creative with it in time) but also good on the counter? Why does it have to be one or the other? Someone in one of these pages talked about Man United's counter attacking under Ferguson but they were good in possession too. Obviously our players aren't of that calibre but it's still possible to emulate the tactics and style, there's been a few teams doing it over the last few years to a standard that shouldn't be beyond us.
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Seems to run throughout the club, the under 21's were beaten again last night 2-0 by the mighty Brighton and are having a poor season,have all the decent coaches left and left us with Lambert and one or two others?
What's Kevin Mac up to these days?
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I mean, we shouldn't pretend that it's not a massive improvement. But it's the kind of improvement which, if you have to make it in the first place, should disqualify you from the management business, at least as far as the top division is concerned.
Especially if it comes two-and-a-half years into your time at a club.
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Thing is our defence looks better because the players look better. having Clark and Baker at the back for a game no longer causes fear and panic as much as it did just a season or so ago. The midfield are doing a better job of screening that back 4. Therefore, our defensive frailties have improved and had before the change of style. So, once you get that right, why not rely on the system you've got to get you wins? The counter-attacking team that we had, not the boring version this year, but the one that was capable of the odd performance or two, would thrive under a rock solid (ish) defence to bail them out if needed.
Agree Peter and it's hardly rocket science is it? Hutton is a better defender than Lowton, Cissokho is a better defender than Bennett and Luna put together, Clark is much improved and Okore has featured more. Added to that, we've had Vlaar and Senderos appearing at times. Much better personnel than the past couple of seasons, so hardly some tactical masterstroke.
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We pass to the left, we pass to the right, that Paul Lambert he only talks shite!
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Seems to run throughout the club, the under 21's were beaten again last night 2-0 by the mighty Brighton and are having a poor season,have all the decent coaches left and left us with Lambert and one or two others?
What's Kevin Mac up to these days?
Not a lot I saw him at the docs the other day and in tescos in Hinckley.
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I think calling it a 'style' is going a bit over the top
Putting on the agony putting on the style. That's what all the young folks are doing all the while. And as I look around me I sometimes have to smile....er...fill in the last line yourselves! I cant think of anything that rhymes!
...'cos the only style at Villa park comes in a steaming pile!
Not my greatest work Ron, but us artists don't get warmed up 'til after midday when the mescaline starts to kick in.
Wonder how many other old gits recognise the words and can sing them to the tune?
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I think calling it a 'style' is going a bit over the top
Putting on the agony putting on the style. That's what all the young folks are doing all the while. And as I look around me I sometimes have to smile....er...fill in the last line yourselves! I cant think of anything that rhymes!
...'cos the only style at Villa park comes in a steaming pile!
Not my greatest work Ron, but us artists don't get warmed up 'til after midday when the mescaline starts to kick in.
Wonder how many other old gits recognise the words and can sing them to the tune?
All hail the Skiffle King!
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I think I preferred counter attack to this new "style"
At least when it came off it was generally pacey , sharp and incisive.
I do love our new solid defence though . All very George Graham.
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I think calling it a 'style' is going a bit over the top
Putting on the agony putting on the style. That's what all the young folks are doing all the while. And as I look around me I sometimes have to smile....er...fill in the last line yourselves! I cant think of anything that rhymes!
...'cos the only style at Villa park comes in a steaming pile!
Not my greatest work Ron, but us artists don't get warmed up 'til after midday when the mescaline starts to kick in.
Wonder how many other old gits recognise the words and can sing them to the tune?
All hail the Skiffle King!
Never failed to get the toes tapping - even at my tender age!
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Our defensive frailties were down to 2 common issues:
The opposite fullback being too narrow - because we had a centre back coming out to help his full back everyone shifted across 1 leaving a huge gap at the back post.
The 2nd was a direct result of this because a centre midfielder would try to drift out and we'd end up with gaps on the edge of the box which encouraged runners from deep and left us all over the place.
This season we seem to be trusting the fullbacks more (which makes sense as they're much better defenders) but also a central midfielder drifting over to help is more common than a central defender which means we're not seeing players drifting across anything like as much.
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Yeah I think the full backs have helped the centre backs massively. They were an absolute liability before and I really like lowton as a player
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But Lowton's hardly played Matt.
And his defending of Young for the Yanited goal was shite.
Hutton has made a big difference on that side of the defence.
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That's my point. LOWTON is a good footballer but a crap defender. Hutton and cissokho much more solid. Defence now better. Centre backs form much improved
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On the style of play:
I do think it's very odd to be changing our style after all this time and that does diminish my confidence in Lambert further
But I don't think it's surprising that we're struggling to create chances as we transition and I can envisage that improving as we adjust. This is what I was expecting when Lambert started but we didn't keep the passing style for too long
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On the style of play:
I do think it's very odd to be changing our style after all this time and that does diminish my confidence in Lambert further
But I don't think it's surprising that we're struggling to create chances as we transition and I can envisage that improving as we adjust.
That's kind of my take on it as well and now we've started, we've got to stick with it. I just hope we don't persist with Sanchez, Westwood and Cleverley in the same midfield though. That's not going to get us anywhere.
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The problem for me is the lack of pace in our game. It is an improvement that we are now keeping the ball better as our lack of the ball was costing us points before. But you still have to pass with a purpose, and need to mix it up. That is what worrys me is that like relaying too much on the counter attacking tactic before than Lambert will now just stick to this passing game and nothing else. You do wonder also if this change has been more just to get fans on side than because it suits the team. Then again the likes of Sancenz and Cleverly do fit this sort of tactic so I maybe looking for something which isn't there :-X
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I wouldn't mind trying Lowton further forward to whip balls in. But Lambert simply doesn't play that way so I'd rather we sell than play him in defence.
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I wouldn't mind trying Lowton further forward to whip balls in. But Lambert simply doesn't play that way so I'd rather we sell than play him in defence.
What I don't get is that it is almost like he sees playing that sort of player as leaving ourselves too open, but as long as they track back when we don't have the ball I don't see the issue really.
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In response to our new style of play it is a work in process as well as progress. What the villa players implement on the training field is being shown in match play over the last few matches. Its a case of more possession based football and the passing is actually never pointless if just side to side what it actually is doing is preparing an attack. The philosophy us not so well understood in the UK however by all accounts the players have adapted well and continue to move forward. I suspect the goals will come once the correct movements and triangles around ball players become more apparent. What can be said is the defence is working on being closer with the deep lying midfielder. I think we can all agree Carlos Sanchez has been outstanding in recovering the ball from the opposition . The great news is Westy is now back which will help penetration from possession. The style Villa are implementing must be embraced by pkayers and fans alike. We are essentially talking between 10 , 15 maybe 20 passes before what as seen as attack forming. If no goal or attack occurs we go again. The villa players have at times been tentative with the new systematic approach however there is a genuine enthusiasm within the camp that the building attacks will mean goals. I would suggest that over the next matches more opportunities to score will occur and for villa followers to be faithful and patient.
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In response to our new style of play it is a work in process as well as progress.
Jesus fucking Christ
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(http://flamesnation.ca/uploads/old/2009/01/badge.jpg)
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In response to our new style of play it is a work in process as well as progress.
Jesus fucking Christ
It is quite like watching a procession so he might have a point.
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I wouldn't mind trying Lowton further forward to whip balls in. But Lambert simply doesn't play that way so I'd rather we sell than play him in defence.
What I don't get is that it is almost like he sees playing that sort of player as leaving ourselves too open, but as long as they track back when we don't have the ball I don't see the issue really.
I completely agree, it's his going out 'not to lose' mentality that is the issue. That tactic only makes sense against very few clubs.
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It's nice to see there is someone who posts in this thread to educate us on the intricacies of the way the game should be played.
What the fuck would we do without them?
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In response to our new style of play it is a work in process as well as progress. What the villa players implement on the training field is being shown in match play over the last few matches. Its a case of more possession based football and the passing is actually never pointless if just side to side what it actually is doing is preparing an attack. The philosophy us not so well understood in the UK however by all accounts the players have adapted well and continue to move forward. I suspect the goals will come once the correct movements and triangles around ball players become more apparent. What can be said is the defence is working on being closer with the deep lying midfielder. I think we can all agree Carlos Sanchez has been outstanding in recovering the ball from the opposition . The great news is Westy is now back which will help penetration from possession. The style Villa are implementing must be embraced by pkayers and fans alike. We are essentially talking between 10 , 15 maybe 20 passes before what as seen as attack forming. If no goal or attack occurs we go again. The villa players have at times been tentative with the new systematic approach however there is a genuine enthusiasm within the camp that the building attacks will mean goals. I would suggest that over the next matches more opportunities to score will occur and for villa followers to be faithful and patient.
you seem to speak as an insider: do you work on the AVFC coaching staff?
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It's nice to see there is someone who posts in this thread to educate us on the intricacies of the way the game should be played.
Isn't that what we all do?
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The thing is I have no problem with us playing a slow passing game, as I said before we did need better prosession. I just don't think we need to play it all the time, and should be able to mix things up depending on who we are playing. And yes I do think that there should be more movement off the ball or that the passing should be quicker. That style of play also depends on if you have the right players, and with a couple of noteable exceptions I don't think we do.
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Did you say Westwood will help us with our penetration? He's hardly known for his assists so far is he? He will fit in perfectly with the sideways passing though
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Did you say Westwood will help us with our penetration? He's hardly known for his assists so far is he? He will fit in perfectly with the sideways passing though
No, but he is good from set pieces. I don't mind Westwood, he is still young and learning the game and has shown me enough to suggest he has promise. Cleverly has been far worse for me.
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Did you say Westwood will help us with our penetration? He's hardly known for his assists so far is he? He will fit in perfectly with the sideways passing though
No, but he is good from set pieces. I don't mind Westwood, he is still young and learning the game and has shown me enough to suggest he has promise. Cleverly has been far worse for me.
Westwood as the best passer of the ball will look to have as much of the ball as possible . The idea is to get the ball to westwood to penetrate and set up attacks. Sanchez is the holder and other option for this. Against Leicester previously westy was closed down and ultimately injured as he was seen as the play maker in villas system
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Did you say Westwood will help us with our penetration? He's hardly known for his assists so far is he? He will fit in perfectly with the sideways passing though
Actually yes he is, he's been easily the best in our team since he arrived at picking out runs and putting people into space, it's actually the lack of decent movement in front of him that makes him look a lot more crablike than he really is. He was very good in the spell at the end of his first season when our front 3 worked. What he really needs is someone who can find gaps around the box for him to pass into space.
http://www.whoscored.com/Players/79050/History/Ashley-Westwood
The key passes stat is the important one, so averaging 1.5 chance creating passes a game. That's probably reasonably competitive with most defensive midfielders in the league (outside the top 4-5 clubs).
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Did you say Westwood will help us with our penetration? He's hardly known for his assists so far is he? He will fit in perfectly with the sideways passing though
No, but he is good from set pieces. I don't mind Westwood, he is still young and learning the game and has shown me enough to suggest he has promise. Cleverly has been far worse for me.
Westwood as the best passer of the ball will look to have as much of the ball as possible . The idea is to get the ball to westwood to penetrate and set up attacks. Sanchez is the holder and other option for this. Against Leicester previously westy was closed down and ultimately injured as he was seen as the play maker in villas system
so, do you actually work at the Villa?
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Bit unnecessary piling on isn't there? Footyskillz seems to have a perfectly reasonable point of view.
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In response to our new style of play it is a work in process as well as progress. What the villa players implement on the training field is being shown in match play over the last few matches. Its a case of more possession based football and the passing is actually never pointless if just side to side what it actually is doing is preparing an attack. The philosophy us not so well understood in the UK however by all accounts the players have adapted well and continue to move forward. I suspect the goals will come once the correct movements and triangles around ball players become more apparent. What can be said is the defence is working on being closer with the deep lying midfielder. I think we can all agree Carlos Sanchez has been outstanding in recovering the ball from the opposition . The great news is Westy is now back which will help penetration from possession. The style Villa are implementing must be embraced by pkayers and fans alike. We are essentially talking between 10 , 15 maybe 20 passes before what as seen as attack forming. If no goal or attack occurs we go again. The villa players have at times been tentative with the new systematic approach however there is a genuine enthusiasm within the camp that the building attacks will mean goals. I would suggest that over the next matches more opportunities to score will occur and for villa followers to be faithful and patient.
I have no problem with the new philosophy of passing the ball to a player in the same colour shirt, what I don't understand however is the sideways football. In playing amateur football for 25 plus years I was always told that you pass a ball to take an opponent out of the game. Once we have then got the ball into a position for the winger/wide midfield player ie. N'gobia to isolate a player he can go past them and cross into the box. When we get possession anywhere near an opponent then we pass sideways instead of past the player and committing them. When we have the ball out wide one against one then we pass sideways and back until it gets to Guzan and start again. against Palace the only real chance they had was a big punt down field, I wouldn't advocate playing like that all the time but occasionally it may prove beneficial to pit Benteke against a centre half in a one on one. Plus, whilst we are on the subject of style of play, why do we bring all 11 players back into the box when defending corners. If we left Benteke upfield then the opposition would have to leave two defenders back to mark him thus reducing their attacking options.
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Hopefully with this new strong defensive line we have and the ability to keep the ball might actually work once we sign a little flair to mix it up once in a while. I'm using the words 'hope' and 'might' please note.