We've not had a Martin O'Neill argument in ages...

[passitsideways]

Bloody heck, does all this mean there's an impending argument about Ged Houllier right around the corner?

[Witton Warrior]

There was a little more to it than that.

passport, passport give us the facts, passport, give us the facts - shhhhhhhhhhhh...........

[AV82EC]

Bloody heck, does all this mean there's an impending argument about Ged Houllier right around the corner?

He never got the credit he deserved.

(Pulls up chair, opens popcorn....)

[passport1]

Nobody has said that the O'Neill years were bad. What HAS been said is that with the resources he had available he should have done better, and his legacy continues to cause problems.

Nobody has said that the O'Neill years were bad. What HAS been said is that with the resources he had available he should have done better, and his legacy continues to cause problems.

Exactly my thoughts...with the addition that the way and timing of him leaving wiped out every drop of good faith that he built up.  The act of a gutless man.

Or one that was constructively dismissed

Yes, horrible Randy Lerner forcing him to resign five days before the start of the new season because he wasn't allowed to sign Aidan McGeady.

My comment was made in response to this childishness.

I would however be delighted to hear Mr Woodhalls categorical proof of the "no he wasn't" respose to the comment that MON was constructively dismissed.

Exactly my thoughts...with the addition that the way and timing of him leaving wiped out every drop of good faith that he built up.  The act of a gutless man.

Or one that was constructively dismissed

Yes, horrible Randy Lerner forcing him to resign five days before the start of the new season because he wasn't allowed to sign Aidan McGeady.

[Chris Smith]

Nobody has said that the O'Neill years were bad. What HAS been said is that with the resources he had available he should have done better, and his legacy continues to cause problems.

Exactly my thoughts...with the addition that the way and timing of him leaving wiped out every drop of good faith that he built up.  The act of a gutless man.

Or one that was constructively dismissed

Yes, horrible Randy Lerner forcing him to resign five days before the start of the new season because he wasn't allowed to sign Aidan McGeady.

It must have required some quick revisionism when all those who had been so scathing of McGeady had to confront the fact that the esteemed Roberto Martinez thought him worth signing for Everton. He is a good player who would have added to the squad, problem was that, although we didn't yet know it, we were heading into this ongoing period of austerity where the club had scaled back their ambitions without seemingly coming to any agreement with the manager.

Of course MoN soured everything with his flounce off but as we are seeing with Lambert now there is a rush, in some quarters, to rubbish everything about people in a 'hell hath no fury' kind of style.

[dave.woodhall]

Nobody has said that the O'Neill years were bad. What HAS been said is that with the resources he had available he should have done better, and his legacy continues to cause problems.

Nobody has said that the O'Neill years were bad. What HAS been said is that with the resources he had available he should have done better, and his legacy continues to cause problems.

Exactly my thoughts...with the addition that the way and timing of him leaving wiped out every drop of good faith that he built up.  The act of a gutless man.

Or one that was constructively dismissed

Yes, horrible Randy Lerner forcing him to resign five days before the start of the new season because he wasn't allowed to sign Aidan McGeady.

My comment was made in response to this childishness.

I would however be delighted to hear Mr Woodhalls categorical proof of the "no he wasn't" respose to the comment that MON was constructively dismissed.

Exactly my thoughts...with the addition that the way and timing of him leaving wiped out every drop of good faith that he built up.  The act of a gutless man.

Or one that was constructively dismissed

Yes, horrible Randy Lerner forcing him to resign five days before the start of the new season because he wasn't allowed to sign Aidan McGeady.

Strange how it's always 'childishness' when anyone disagrees with you.

[SamTheMouse]

Most of the good things about the MON era came from Randy's bank account.

Unfortunately, so did all the really shit ones.

[passport1]

Strange I ignored the abuse from the Neanderthal that called me a f$#@@ div, I explain tagain.

Pleasentext of my comment from last night in , which several posters thought meant soneting else and ask you to prove your comment.

Your response whilst appearing to admonish me does not answer the question. So I'll try again.

What is your proof that he was not constructively dismissed? Other than stating"no he wasn't"

[Ads]

You can't prove a negative. You said he was constructively dismissed, the burden of proof therefore rests with yourself to discharge on the balance of probabilities. This is not something you can do, as you have no evidence.

I therefore, in my Judgment, grant Dave Woodhall's application under CPR 24.2(a)(i) for Summary Judgment and dismiss the case. I will now hear your submissions for costs.

[Richard E]

You can't prove a negative. You said he was constructively dismissed, therefore the burden of evidence therefore rests with yourself to discharge on the balance of probabilities. This is not something you can do, as you have no evidence.

I therefore, in my Judgment, grant Dave Woodhall's application under CPR 24.2(a)(i) and dismiss the case. I will now hear your submissions for costs.

I've been approaching my advocacy in Employment Tribunals all wrong all these years. In future in a constructive dismissal case I shall call no evidence at all but just ask the Respondent's first witness "You prove that my client wasn't constructively dismissed!" and will then sit down and ask no further questions.

If someone has some credible evidence that Aston Villa Football Club were in fundamental breach of MON's contract of employment then I would love to see it.

[dave.woodhall]

Strange I ignored the abuse from the Neanderthal that called me a f$#@@ div, I explain tagain.

Pleasentext of my comment from last night in , which several posters thought meant soneting else and ask you to prove your comment.

Your response whilst appearing to admonish me does not answer the question. So I'll try again.

What is your proof that he was not constructively dismissed? Other than stating"no he wasn't"

Apart from the obvious difficulty of disproving a negative, the fact (and you've stated that you like facts) is that he and the rest of his staff walked out five days before the season started. I could point you in several directions that would tell you the full extent of this supposed dismissal but as they wouldn't be able to disprove said negative with any written evidence you probably wouldn't believe them either.

Martin O'Neill timed his departure knowing it would cause maximum inconvenience. That's a fact. I await any justification for his actions.

[Dave]

Nobody has said that the O'Neill years were bad. What HAS been said is that with the resources he had available he should have done better, and his legacy continues to cause problems.

Exactly my thoughts...with the addition that the way and timing of him leaving wiped out every drop of good faith that he built up.  The act of a gutless man.

Or one that was constructively dismissed

Yes, horrible Randy Lerner forcing him to resign five days before the start of the new season because he wasn't allowed to sign Aidan McGeady.

It must have required some quick revisionism when all those who had been so scathing of McGeady had to confront the fact that the esteemed Roberto Martinez thought him worth signing for Everton. He is a good player who would have added to the squad, problem was that, although we didn't yet know it, we were heading into this ongoing period of austerity where the club had scaled back their ambitions without seemingly coming to any agreement with the manager.

Of course MoN soured everything with his flounce off but as we are seeing with Lambert now there is a rush, in some quarters, to rubbish everything about people in a 'hell hath no fury' kind of style.

He's a perfectly reasonable player. But had he cost the £15m that O'Neill wanted to pay Celtic rather than the £1.5m paid to Spartak Moscow I wonder if Martinez would still have been so keen.

[Ads]

You can't prove a negative. You said he was constructively dismissed, therefore the burden of evidence therefore rests with yourself to discharge on the balance of probabilities. This is not something you can do, as you have no evidence.

I therefore, in my Judgment, grant Dave Woodhall's application under CPR 24.2(a)(i) and dismiss the case. I will now hear your submissions for costs.

I've been approaching my advocacy in Employment Tribunals all wrong all these years. In future in a constructive dismissal case I shall call no evidence at all but just ask the Respondent's first witness "You prove that my client wasn't constructively dismissed!" and will then sit down and ask no further questions.

If someone has some credible evidence that Aston Villa Football Club were in fundamental breach of MON's contract of employment then I would love to see it.

You might take them by surprise with that approach! You'd have to double check your professional indemnity insurance beforehand though, just in case!

As you and Dave say, the only fact that we have is that O'Neill, and his coaching staff, left the club 5 days before the start of the season which caused significant consequences. How anybody, without any other evidence, can make an assessment that he was constructively dismissed, is beyond me.

[saunders_heroes]

Didn't O'Neill win his court case against Lerner which led people into thinking he was constructively dismissed?

[Richard E]

Didn't O'Neill win his court case against Lerner which led people into thinking he was constructively dismissed?

No. It was settled out of court, as most Tribunal cases are. Employer clients of mine settle all the time without this being an admission of liability. There might be all manner of reasons for doing so.