Albrighton Going to Leicester

[rob_bridge]

Is Rolta a senior employee of AVFC?

[Clampy]

I do like the fact that we can only discuss teams that Rolta wants us to discuss. Try throwing in teams like Stoke, Fulham and Sheffield United and the argument turns to 'well it must be half term'.

I was talking about Poyet, specifically. My point was he has had a team with investment to draw from. You can't pull a rabbit out of a hat if there isn't a rabbit already in the hat. The teams I chose – the date I chose – was picked as it was the last of Sunderland's wins, so effectively the last part of Poyet's miracle escape. That also coincided with the penultimate game of our dreadful end of season, which is the Villa team I posted. That was more of an interesting comparison. And anyway, we don't have a rabbit in our hat – not in our budget team.

That's all.

Bringing up teams who have beaten us in one-off games was not part of my point, so it was a side argument. I was hoping to stick to the point. If I offended you with the half-term thing, then I apologise.

Just because it wasn't part of your point doesn't mean it can't be part of anyone else's. Besides, Fulham and Stoke were not one off games and going back further, neither was Bradford. We also managed to let four in against a Swansea side who were sliding down the table themselves at the time.   

As for the half term thing, it was just unnecessary and well, a bit childish.

[pauliewalnuts]

Completely agree about the devaluing of the bomb-squad. It was a bit like trying to sell something on eBay by posting a photo of it in the bin.

Ha ha, excellently put, and I agree entirely.

[Bad English]

Rolta's long-post tactics, which really are indefensible

If only!

Fixed.

[kippaxvilla2]

Well, that would be a convincing argument, if you hadn't chosen us at our weakest moment of the season in terms of squad strength (and Sunderland at one of their strongest). There's £14m (Kozak and Benteke) unaccounted for which, even when playing, didn't stop us looking for the most part horrifically one dimensional. By the way, that's £14m which cannot really be expected to play together except in kitchen-sink chucking final ten minute desperation (or, 'doing a Lambert') - how is that prudent use of such limited finances? It's not. It's the action of a man who played Grant Holt and Steve Morison up front together at Norwich quite regularly, in order to chunt long balls at them. This goes back a long way. What Poyet did was quite extraordinary, and when you set him up against Lambert it's an embarrassing no-contest.

Lambert does, as you tenuously put it, have it in him to want to play better football, which as you say makes him better than McLeish. However, that also makes him MON, who too wanted to play better football, but whose limitations were such that he couldn't achieve it despite huge amounts of money being chucked at the team. He got results, but he should have done better and was held back by his stubborn adherence to a rigid 4-4-2, counter-attacking, overrating speed and strength over skill, having not the first clue about modern methods of pass-and-move training and generally boofing it all the pissing time. Lambert is more flexible in formation, and doesn't share MON's winger addiction (more's the pity), but being stuck in the 90s isn't all that much better than being stuck in the 70s, and he exhibits all he same traits otherwise.

Like MON, Lambert's team can look exciting if given space into which to play. Basically, on the break. He's a reactive manager, and the difference between a defensive performance and a counterattacking one is often no more than getting the breaks to escape from the back. However, give us a massed defence to break down and his teams have no plan, so we end up with the long balls into a congested space where it's almost certain not to work.

This is why we're horrendous at home - a number ten would help (even if he only appears to have heard of them yesterday), but what would help much more is actually looking like there's a plan when we have the ball. If you look at Rodgers' teams (interesting how you skipped over him, but we'll come to that), there's real purpose in possession. That's because Rodgers trains them maniacally in what to do when you get the ball, where to move to depending on where you are in relation to the player, one and two touch passing to keep the ball moving - you know, practicing. MON got them to jog around the pitch and play a five-a-side, if he was there at all.

Lambert's probably in between, but there's absolutely no evidence on the pitch that there's been significant work on the training ground. The players look lost, unguided by any helping hand, and that hand should be the managers. When they do break forward (usually Delph) all the running off the ball looks painfully improvised, which slows us down two-fold: firstly, the player has to decide where to move instead of just knowing by second-nature, as training would have helped him to acquire; and secondly, the player with the ball has to look for his teammates before making the pass, instead of trusting to the plan. This is the case all the time, and it's agony to watch.

Forget the money, because I've already said I think Lambert's actually good in the transfer market (though a good scout doesn't necessarily make a good manager) - is Ashley Westwood really a worse footballer, on the ball, than Lee twatting Cattermole? Because when Westwood arrived his off-the-ball anticipation and movement was fantastic, I thought we'd found a bargain Petrov, but two years of Lambert and he looks like he's trying to stodge his way through a bog with lead shoes without a map, whereas the lump Cattermole is moving into space like Busquets. Who's fault is this?

Please don't tell me that I need to 'really look' at what we've got right now, believe me, I've been really fucking looking for two years. And you know, you say your posts have to be long because you need the 'substance', but actually I'm afraid all I read is a lot of bluff, quite a lot of cliche, much over-simplifying and innumerable half-truths of a pretty mendacious nature. You say 'Baker costs us twenty goals a year' - then why did he keep playing him? Clark was always available but practically never given the chance, because despite being better on the ball he doesn't do Big Physical Things, and Lambert just loves those unreservedly.

You just say, for instance, of Martinez that 'well, he got Wigan relegated', neglecting of course to mention that he kept Wigan alive way beyond their life-expectancy and won them the FA Cup. You say these managers had more time at their clubs? Well, Poyet hadn't, and had to work with players who'd been exposed to Paulo di Canio for several months, and now look at them. Lambert's had two years and the football is getting worse - not 'more solid', as you keep saying, because we've either had the same or a worse season than last year, and we've just been worse to watch. Lambert needs time? The more time he's had, the worse it's got.

There's more than one way to play football, but none of them involve honestly thinking that long-balls, at home, in a winnable match, against a massed defence, are a real option. Lambert appears to think so, and it'll always, always, always hold him back no matter how many bargains he finds.

This essay shall be the last time I respond to you, unless you can come up with a new point better than 'you don't understand, simpleton, hark at my superior cod-economics!'. Over and out.

Well, you are a pompous man. I think I've said my piece too, and I believe you expect too much for the money, as I've been saying. Your bluff doesn't cover up for that. We clearly have different opinions, so we'll both stop I guess. Also, it is funny you say Lambert only just heard of the number 10, and the number 10 he tried to buy is the same one he had at Norwich and Livingston. This is Wes Hoolahan who credits Lambert with converting him from a winger into a number 10.

I've got nothing wrong with Martinez, and I have huge respect for Rodgers, of course. I am staggered why Lambert chose Baker over Clark – it was the most baffling of all decisions last year, imo. It doesn't make me want him sacked though. Er...because he has done a job with those finances 
 

Nothing to add, just wanted to extend this quotathon.

[paul_e]

I actually did the Crystal Palace team a while ago. I think it's on this thread.

I put that Sunderland team up because I was talking about Poyet, and you'd have known that if you'd actually tried to understand/read what I posted. Putting our team up was more for interest. As for the guy who said we've got £70million worth of talent out of that squad (an over estimate anyway, surely) – there are clearly players like Bent, Given and Hutton who have been marginalised as part of the cost cutting. Getting rid of them is part of that cost cutting (we didn't pay Bent's wages this year for instance), so they have not been a part of Lambert's plans, which has been dictated by the finances.

I'm surprised at the reactions tbh, I thought this was a place for discussion. Oh, but now I realise...it's half term!

And as for the over-focus on Bradford/Sheffield United – we all know things happen in cups. Bringing them up in an argument doesn't overrule all other logic.

That'll be me, I do not believe that the formation of a bomb squad and the refusal to use those players was a business decision that makes absolutely no sense.  I think if lambert had wanted to use Bent. for example, there'd have been no restrictions on him doing so.  If there were that, in my mind, is even worse, you'd have to be a pretty weak person to allow that.


Anyway, on point, the £70m (all these values are from transferleague.co.uk which uses the same values as transfermarkt that you based your values on):


Bent - 18m
Nzog - 9.5m (27.5)
Hutton - 4m (31.5)
Given - 3.5m (35)
Sylla - 2m (37)
Benteke - 10m (47) - I don't think that value is correct though
Bennett - 2.5m (49.5)
Okore - 4m (53.5)
Helenius - 2m (55.5)
Kozak - 5m (60.5)
Luna - 2m (62.5)


The difference is I counted 8m for Ireland, forgetting that he left permanently in January.


So move aside from the explanations, you picked a game and stated that our squad had a value of 26m, I simply pointed out that the full squad is nothing like so impoverished as you're pointing out.


You're also ignoring that Lamberts net spend isn't lower than previous managers (actually having been manager for a 2 years out of 8 since Lerner arrived he is responsible for around 35% of our spending in that time, so his average is actually higher than Lerners).  I accept that the wage restrictions have been limiting, that's clear and EVERYONE already knows that so you don't need to tell us.  What people are arguing is that those transfer fee and wage restrictions aren't, on their own, justification for the on-field performances.


Your blinkered refusal to accept that point is why Monty has got increasingly more frustrated with you on this thread and also serves mainly to make people argue an even harder line to try to get you to back down on your claims.


The sole truth is that Lambert is incredibly lucky to have a job right now, a glance through the list of sacked premier league managers in the last 2 years is irrefutable testament to that, no other club in the league has been more supportive of a manager.  Given that support the very least he should have done was focus on improving the clubs future prospects.  that means lots of coaching on basic skills, passing, moving, first touch, defensive positioning, etc.

[ChicagoLion]

Monty Brilliant Top Top Post

[SamTheMouse]

Signing players and picking the right tactics are only part of it. If you're going for bargain basement approach, then the really crucial quality in a manager is coaching and player development. Rodgers, for example, somehow managed to make Wayne fucking Routledge look like a good player. How many people think Lambert would have been able to do that?

[N'ZMAV]

Some of the play I've seen under Lambert really lacks basics. The lack of movement, on and off the ball, is what annoys me the most. How difficult can it be to instruct players to move once they've passed the ball, or move when they want the ball?

[andrew08]

For what it's worth I'm leaning towards being pro Lambert and feel he deserves more praise than he's getting from the fans. The media seem to think he's done an acceptable job as well. He's not been without fault and of course our style of play is at best erm basic but our defenders are barely able to defend at this level let alone come out with the ball and pass (heaven help us if they tried). ditto most of the midfield.

I would say Norwich and dare I say it Albion had better squads than us last season so he 'coached' well to finish above them. In an extremely back to basics fashion but you can only coach so much into the players he's got.

When DOL left he couldn't get another job in the PL when he had to work under similar circumstances. Lambert will: he kept to his Chairman's budget and kept us in the league. It's been horrible to watch, but only some really care about that in reality. I prefer my post match evenings to be full of 1-0 wins not 4-3 defeats!

[Monty]

When DOL left he couldn't get another job in the PL when he had to work under similar circumstances. Lambert will: he kept to his Chairman's budget and kept us in the league. It's been horrible to watch, but only some really care about that in reality. I prefer my post match evenings to be full of 1-0 wins not 4-3 defeats!

Well, we got the '1' of the 1-0s you want, but sadly also the '4' of the 4-3s you don't.

[claret and blue blood]

The coaching  aspect is where we all come back to as there must have been a real problem or why else would the two senior coaches have been sacked ? As a lot of people have already said even the basics seemed beyond us in a lot of games and too many players went backwards. Will Sid have any say in who we appoint ? I haven't seen any of our youth/ under 21 games , but does his style not get carried through to the first team ?

[andrew08]

When DOL left he couldn't get another job in the PL when he had to work under similar circumstances. Lambert will: he kept to his Chairman's budget and kept us in the league. It's been horrible to watch, but only some really care about that in reality. I prefer my post match evenings to be full of 1-0 wins not 4-3 defeats!

Well, we got the '1' of the 1-0s you want, but sadly also the '4' of the 4-3s you don't.

True enough

[dekko]

I think the most solid evidence pointing towards poor coaching being the main problem (finances aside) is Ryan Bertrand.  He's not the greatest player in the world but he looked head and shoulders above the rest of our team when he first came in, yet as the season went on he stopped standing out and finished as just another player in a poor team.  That's down to what happens on the training ground IMO

[brian green]

Serious question.   How bad does a bad manager have to be?   I cannot believe that there is a single proper Villa fan who can make a case for Lambert.   I can only put it down to a collective guilt complex which has grown from our detestation of DOL and TSM and our recognition of the premeditated spite which was in MON's walk out.   If Paul Lambert had not been preceded by Alex McLeish he would have been thrown out neck and crop months ago.   If Paul Lambert is still manager of Villa come Christmas of this year my 67 consecutive years on the Holte will be at an end.