Albrighton Going to Leicester

[Steve67]

There are parameters in place at every club. Every single club. Whilst I will apologise for the tongue comment, it does baffle me that some people seem to feel sorry for Lambert for doing such a poor job. In the meantime, whilst we seem to have no choice, we just take it and have to accept it.

[saunders_heroes]

In hindsight, I wish Randy had kept his trap shut and not said anything. All we have now is doom and gloom with many thinking we have no money to spend and that we are stuck with Paul Lambert as Manager. I think I would prefer to know when the club is sold. Whatever Lambert does spend is wasted because the guy can't coach for shit.

But his last two clubs (who weren't losing £50million a year and requiring high levels of investment to be cut) improved season by season under Lambert. He took Norwich from League 1, through the Championship, into the Premier League and got them 12th in consecutive seasons. Was that then a fluke? Or do you not think that maybe there is a bit more to this current state at Aston Villa than saying "he can't coach for shit". (Not that he was the coach anyway – his coaches did that, and I think Lambert might actually be the manager). 

Premier League history is littered with managers who get small clubs to the Premier, keep them there for a season, get lauded about being 'the next big thing' then vanish into obscurity. I don't see why Lambert is any different. It's been a car crash since he arrived at our club.

[mrastonvilla]

It was a car crash before he arrived

[Gregorys Boy]

It was a car crash before he arrived

Fair point.

I do think there has been a bit of step up from what was expected of him at Norwich and now, and I am not sure he has quite grasp the difference.  In terms of how he sets his teams up, and the message he sends the players in interviews (an important part of management) he does seem to still be working at the Norwich level, and it just doesn't seem to be working.

[Rolta]

In hindsight, I wish Randy had kept his trap shut and not said anything. All we have now is doom and gloom with many thinking we have no money to spend and that we are stuck with Paul Lambert as Manager. I think I would prefer to know when the club is sold. Whatever Lambert does spend is wasted because the guy can't coach for shit.

But his last two clubs (who weren't losing £50million a year and requiring high levels of investment to be cut) improved season by season under Lambert. He took Norwich from League 1, through the Championship, into the Premier League and got them 12th in consecutive seasons. Was that then a fluke? Or do you not think that maybe there is a bit more to this current state at Aston Villa than saying "he can't coach for shit". (Not that he was the coach anyway – his coaches did that, and I think Lambert might actually be the manager). 

I still think he should have done better than he has. He didn't seem to have the ability to build on good results. We should have kicked on from Chelsea win but instead we went alarmingly backwards, so far backwards even Vlaar admitted that had we had another couple of games to play, we'd have been in trouble.

He did an amazing job at Norwich and he had players of lesser quality than he's got here. Benteke's injury was a blow but we were going on losing runs even when he was playing.

You say we've got a higher quality of players here than what he had a Norwich, but look at our squad – I think you're blinded by the name "Aston Villa". After the cost cutting and financial limitations, do we really, on average, have a better squad than he had at Norwich? I say we don't. We've got a few good players, but the bulk of our squad is filled with very average academy players punching above their weight and young/cheap buys on low wages. And before anyone starts, yes, he bought those players, but he bought them under the established remit of cutting expenditure. You can't buy a low wage experienced Kevin Nolan let alone Lionel Messi.

I also think it would have been easier for him to form his squad at Norwich in an organic way where we can all presume with massive confidence that he wasn't cutting a £50million wagebill.

[Gregorys Boy]

I agree that overall Norwich have just as good a squad as us, maybe better, but you still have to approach a job like ours in a different way as you would at a smaller club.  Its not long ago we were in the top six, but yes I agree it now feels a life time ago

[Rolta]

There are parameters in place at every club. Every single club. Whilst I will apologise for the tongue comment, it does baffle me that some people seem to feel sorry for Lambert for doing such a poor job. In the meantime, whilst we seem to have no choice, we just take it and have to accept it.

Seriously though – I'm not saying anyone has to feel sorry for him. I don't. I also don't think he's done a poor job if you look at the club as a whole. Like someone else said, the club was in a mess before he came, only now, thanks to Lambert, we're not losing all that money.

It's not about choice or anything, it's seeing the situation at the club for what it is. My opinion: you come across as spoilt. I'd be sorry for saying it if you hadn't told me to take my tongue out of my arse (good one, by the way). I don't even know how you can be spoilt as a Villa fan, because in my experience supporting the club through the nineties and especially the last decade (bar the MON money money flurry and the FA cup final with Gregory – also helped along by stupid investment in aging players) there has on the most part only been bad seasons – with the exception of the first years of the premiership, when money was less of an issue in the premiership as a whole. I'm as into Villa as anyone, and I have hopes for us, but it doesn't just happen because I want it to happen. The club has to become well run for us to get anywhere. In reality we are not big enough to compete at the very top – in reality we are a mid-table team. I don't like how money has ruined football, but it has happened. And having said all that, I am still an optimist, and I hope when/if we do become well run (getting the finances in order is the first step – well done, Paul Lambert – I give credit where it is definitely due) we can emulate teams like Everton or Tottenham, and from there whatever. One step at a time though.

[Rolta]

It was a car crash before he arrived

Fair point.

I do think there has been a bit of step up from what was expected of him at Norwich and now, and I am not sure he has quite grasp the difference.  In terms of how he sets his teams up, and the message he sends the players in interviews (an important part of management) he does seem to still be working at the Norwich level, and it just doesn't seem to be working.

We are a bigger club than Norwich, but I think he's also got to be realistic about the players at his disposal. His more cautious tactics this year imply to me that he is aware as any of us of their limitations.

You can't get average/young players to be any better than they are just because they're at a bigger club. It's pretty clear by what's happened that the job he got given by Lerner was to take this club and cut the wage bill, which is what he's done. The expectations of the fans are, in reality, disconnected from that and almost irrelevant. Having said that I think I'm starting to sound like I don't expect anything from us, but I do. I do, I just think the process the club have taken over the past few years in stabalising the club have been more painful than any of us could have realised. But again – looking at the money side of things and how we have the youngest squad in the premiership, I don't think what's happened at Villa is surprising. I don't think our more chaotic set of results is surprising at all. And as I said above, one step at a time, and I believe we can, with fixed finances, look forwards with (eventually) more hope.

[Gregorys Boy]

There are parameters in place at every club. Every single club. Whilst I will apologise for the tongue comment, it does baffle me that some people seem to feel sorry for Lambert for doing such a poor job. In the meantime, whilst we seem to have no choice, we just take it and have to accept it.

Seriously though – I'm not saying anyone has to feel sorry for him. I don't. I also don't think he's done a poor job if you look at the club as a whole. Like someone else said, the club was in a mess before he came, only now, thanks to Lambert, we're not losing all that money.

It's not about choice or anything, it's seeing the situation at the club for what it is. My opinion: you come across as spoilt. I'd be sorry for saying it if you hadn't told me to take my tongue out of my arse (good one, by the way). I don't even know how you can be spoilt as a Villa fan, because in my experience supporting the club through the nineties and especially the last decade (bar the MON money money flurry and the FA cup final with Gregory – also helped along by stupid investment in aging players) there has on the most part only been bad seasons. I'm as into Villa as anyone, and I have hopes for us, but it doesn't just happen because I want it to happen. The club has to become well run for us to get anywhere. In reality we are not big enough to compete at the very top – in reality we are a mid-table team. I don't like how money has ruined football, but it has happened. And having said all that, I am still an optimist, and I hope when/if we do become well run (getting the finances in order is the first step – well done, Paul Lambert – I give credit where it is definitely due) we can emulate teams like Everton or Tottenham, and from there whatever. One step at a time though. I'd say to you to get your tongue out of your arse, but seeing your lack of logic I don't think you know where your tongue or your arse is.

You make a very interesting point, but to be fair it is not through choice than Lambert has had little to spend it is because the club want it that way.  It may have partly been the reason behind his appointment given what he did at Norwich with very little money.

It is true than since the late 90s/early 00s we have mostly struggled to be anything other than a mid-table club, but then that is largely due to poor managers or the club being poorly run.  The main point is that they should have not have let us drop so far since the MON days.  I don't think anyone is expecting us to compete at the top level, but top eight or six shouldn't be beyond us, also we have become too negative when it comes to the cups.  The odd good run, and threat to winning one of those combained with progress in the league I don't think should be too much to ask for.

[Rolta]

There are parameters in place at every club. Every single club. Whilst I will apologise for the tongue comment, it does baffle me that some people seem to feel sorry for Lambert for doing such a poor job. In the meantime, whilst we seem to have no choice, we just take it and have to accept it.

Seriously though – I'm not saying anyone has to feel sorry for him. I don't. I also don't think he's done a poor job if you look at the club as a whole. Like someone else said, the club was in a mess before he came, only now, thanks to Lambert, we're not losing all that money.

It's not about choice or anything, it's seeing the situation at the club for what it is. My opinion: you come across as spoilt. I'd be sorry for saying it if you hadn't told me to take my tongue out of my arse (good one, by the way). I don't even know how you can be spoilt as a Villa fan, because in my experience supporting the club through the nineties and especially the last decade (bar the MON money money flurry and the FA cup final with Gregory – also helped along by stupid investment in aging players) there has on the most part only been bad seasons. I'm as into Villa as anyone, and I have hopes for us, but it doesn't just happen because I want it to happen. The club has to become well run for us to get anywhere. In reality we are not big enough to compete at the very top – in reality we are a mid-table team. I don't like how money has ruined football, but it has happened. And having said all that, I am still an optimist, and I hope when/if we do become well run (getting the finances in order is the first step – well done, Paul Lambert – I give credit where it is definitely due) we can emulate teams like Everton or Tottenham, and from there whatever. One step at a time though. I'd say to you to get your tongue out of your arse, but seeing your lack of logic I don't think you know where your tongue or your arse is.

You make a very interesting point, but to be fair it is not through choice than Lambert has had little to spend it is because the club want it that way.  It may have partly been the reason behind his appointment given what he did at Norwich with very little money.

It is true than since the late 90s/early 00s we have mostly struggled to be anything other than a mid-table club, but then that is largely due to poor managers or the club being poorly run.  The main point is that they should have not have let us drop so far since the MON days.  I don't think anyone is expecting us to compete at the top level, but top eight or six shouldn't be beyond us, also we have become too negative when it comes to the cups.  The odd good run, and threat to winning one of those combained with progress in the league I don't think should be too much to ask for.

So what I'm saying doesn't rule out us getting back to being in the top ten. But when we were losing £50million a year post MON, we were losing money (on overpaid players, many aging and uncommitted and many more not even making squads or playing) that's money we were throwing away for effectively no reason – the club wasn't getting any benefit from it. We couldn't even afford it and built debts of something like £200million. Imagine what we could have done with £200million spent the right way. Basically we were broken, and clubs in similar, if not precisely, our situation have dropped far far lower than we are now – they've dropped not just into the Championship, but into League One and League Two.

We do seem to have stabalised under Lambert, and from here, because he has also stabalised the finances, we are now in a position to grow. We haven't been in that position since MON, because we've still been losing money. Factor in that we still have Bent, Hutton and Given (no matter if any of them are brought back into the team) we still have overpaid problem players. As they're mostly in the last years of their contracts that's another £10 or so million we don't have to throw away the season after this one.

I think the level of austerity has its logic, even if it was risky. I'd even say it has on the most part paid off. I hope next season and the season after we can get new contracts signed for those who deserve them,  get rid of the last of the over-paid, sign a bit more experience and generally fine tune the slow process of building a committed squad who have come to Villa for more than a pay check. For that to happen I believe we need stability. I also think Lambert hasn't had the funds to be judged fairly so far, and I don't see any reason to think Lambert has become a worse manager than he was at Norwich, when it is clear as day his financial limitations could realistically have ended up in relegation under plenty of other managers. I just think we're still in the turnaround period. Again, without Man City levels of money there is no quick fix. A lot of what happens will clearly rest on what happens with Lerner.

Talking about the top 8-6, the clubs up there are investing. Look at Southampton – they spent £30odd million last summer, and they have surely one of the best youth academies in England – one that puts ours (currently) to shame.

And when we were bad throughout, say, the 00's – Doug Ellis had us run well arguably (we weren't building £200million of debt on an out of control wagebill), but for most of the managers he never invested in the team. He wouldn't even pay Erik Bakke's loan fee from a Championship club. No investment, no top 8.

[Gregorys Boy]

It was a car crash before he arrived

Fair point.

I do think there has been a bit of step up from what was expected of him at Norwich and now, and I am not sure he has quite grasp the difference.  In terms of how he sets his teams up, and the message he sends the players in interviews (an important part of management) he does seem to still be working at the Norwich level, and it just doesn't seem to be working.

We are a bigger club than Norwich, but I think he's also got to be realistic about the players at his disposal. His more cautious tactics this year imply to me that he is aware as any of us of their limitations.

You can't get average/young players to be any better than they are just because they're at a bigger club. It's pretty clear by what's happened that the job he got given by Lerner was to take this club and cut the wage bill, which is what he's done. The expectations of the fans are, in reality, disconnected from that and almost irrelevant. Having said that I think I'm starting to sound like I don't expect anything from us, but I do. I do, I just think the process the club have taken over the past few years in stabalising the club have been more painful than any of us could have realised. But again – looking at the money side of things and how we have the youngest squad in the premiership, I don't think what's happened at Villa is surprising. I don't think our more chaotic set of results is surprising at all. And as I said above, one step at a time, and I believe we can, with fixed finances, look forwards with (eventually) more hope.

It is not so much about him struggling with what he has (which I accept, but to be fair this is almost his team now), just that it seems like he is struggling to even get the best out of those players.  When you look at some of our better results this season and the position we were in following the Chelsea win then I do think Lambert has to take some of the flak for not keeping the players on their toes.  I also think it is more about how he handles interviews, by constantly saying that the team put in a good amount of effort after such bad performances just sends the message to the players than they can keep on playing at that level and it won't matter.  We all know about his Spurs clanger.  It is things like that which he has to learn from in terms of managing a bigger club.

Like you I have been/am a Lambert supporter, and did not expect huge things from last season, but given he made a number of new signings, plus how we finished the last season, along with some of the flashes of progress we showed throughout then I don't think to aim for say 12th or a good cup run should have been beyond us.  I would give him more time, but I think there has to be progress soon.

[Rolta]

Yeah, I was very disappointed in last season. It's a fine line between where we ended up and how we looked to be finishing after beating Chelsea. We were 4 points from 12th, but unlike last season we finished this one without Benteke – if we had him fit, who knows.

We spent £20million last year (but we bought low wage players, not £20million on experienced players on high wages – I can't see Tonev/Helenius/Bacuna being on much) but £10million of that was also injured for basically the whole season. I think with Okore (got to be better than Baker) and Kozak and Benteke fit we should have finished better.

That happens though. It's all part of it. Anyway, I do hope we get some experience and next season might be a little less painful.

[Gregorys Boy]

There are parameters in place at every club. Every single club. Whilst I will apologise for the tongue comment, it does baffle me that some people seem to feel sorry for Lambert for doing such a poor job. In the meantime, whilst we seem to have no choice, we just take it and have to accept it.

Seriously though – I'm not saying anyone has to feel sorry for him. I don't. I also don't think he's done a poor job if you look at the club as a whole. Like someone else said, the club was in a mess before he came, only now, thanks to Lambert, we're not losing all that money.

It's not about choice or anything, it's seeing the situation at the club for what it is. My opinion: you come across as spoilt. I'd be sorry for saying it if you hadn't told me to take my tongue out of my arse (good one, by the way). I don't even know how you can be spoilt as a Villa fan, because in my experience supporting the club through the nineties and especially the last decade (bar the MON money money flurry and the FA cup final with Gregory – also helped along by stupid investment in aging players) there has on the most part only been bad seasons. I'm as into Villa as anyone, and I have hopes for us, but it doesn't just happen because I want it to happen. The club has to become well run for us to get anywhere. In reality we are not big enough to compete at the very top – in reality we are a mid-table team. I don't like how money has ruined football, but it has happened. And having said all that, I am still an optimist, and I hope when/if we do become well run (getting the finances in order is the first step – well done, Paul Lambert – I give credit where it is definitely due) we can emulate teams like Everton or Tottenham, and from there whatever. One step at a time though. I'd say to you to get your tongue out of your arse, but seeing your lack of logic I don't think you know where your tongue or your arse is.

You make a very interesting point, but to be fair it is not through choice than Lambert has had little to spend it is because the club want it that way.  It may have partly been the reason behind his appointment given what he did at Norwich with very little money.

It is true than since the late 90s/early 00s we have mostly struggled to be anything other than a mid-table club, but then that is largely due to poor managers or the club being poorly run.  The main point is that they should have not have let us drop so far since the MON days.  I don't think anyone is expecting us to compete at the top level, but top eight or six shouldn't be beyond us, also we have become too negative when it comes to the cups.  The odd good run, and threat to winning one of those combained with progress in the league I don't think should be too much to ask for.

So what I'm saying doesn't rule out us getting back to being in the top ten. But when we were losing £50million a year post MON, we were losing money (on overpaid players, many aging and uncommitted and many more not even making squads or playing) that's money we were throwing away for effectively no reason – the club wasn't getting any benefit from it. We couldn't even afford it and built debts of something like £200million. Imagine what we could have done with £200million spent the right way. Basically we were broken, and clubs in similar, if not precisely, our situation have dropped far far lower than we are now – they've dropped not just into the Championship, but into League One and League Two.

We do seem to have stabalised under Lambert, and from here, because he has also stabalised the finances, we are now in a position to grow. We haven't been in that position since MON, because we've still been losing money. Factor in that we still have Bent, Hutton and Given (no matter if any of them are brought back into the team) we still have overpaid problem players. As they're mostly in the last years of their contracts that's another £10 or so million we don't have to throw away the season after this one.

I think the level of austerity has its logic, even if it was risky. I'd even say it has on the most part paid off. I hope next season and the season after we can get new contracts signed for those who deserve them,  get rid of the last of the over-paid, sign a bit more experience and generally fine tune the slow process of building a committed squad who have come to Villa for more than a pay check. For that to happen I believe we need stability. I also think Lambert hasn't had the funds to be judged fairly so far, and I don't see any reason to think Lambert has become a worse manager than he was at Norwich, when it is clear as day his financial limitations could realistically have ended up in relegation under plenty of other managers. I just think we're still in the turnaround period. Again, without Man City levels of money there is no quick fix. A lot of what happens will clearly rest on what happens with Lerner.

Talking about the top 8-6, the clubs up there are investing. Look at Southampton – they spent £30odd million last summer, and they have surely one of the best youth academies in England – one that puts ours (currently) to shame.

And when we were bad throughout, say, the 00's – Doug Ellis had us run well arguably (we weren't building £200million of debt on an out of control wagebill), but for most of the managers he never invested in the team. He wouldn't even pay Erik Bakke's loan fee from a Championship club. No investment, no top 8.

Not a worse manager than at Norwich no, just like Moyes hadn't become a worse manager last season than when he was at Everton, it is just case of if Lambert is the right man to take Villa forward.  Even the best managers can still be the wrong fit at certain clubs.  I disagree a bit on the worse managers with the same limitations would see us have gone point, you maybe right, but I don't see much which Lambert did to keep us up, not last season anyway, the season before maybe he deserves more credit for the turn around, but given we ended on such a whimper last season, and were inconsistent all season, it is just a case of us not being as bad as three or four other teams which is why we stayed up IMO.

[Gregorys Boy]

Yeah, I was very disappointed in last season. It's a fine line between where we ended up and how we looked to be finishing after beating Chelsea. We were 4 points from 12th, but unlike last season we finished this one without Benteke – if we had him fit, who knows.

We spent £20million last year (but we bought low wage players, not £20million on experienced players on high wages – I can't see Tonev/Helenius/Bacuna being on much) but £10million of that was also injured for basically the whole season.

That happens though. It's all part of it. Anyway, I do hope we get some experience and next season might be a little less painful.

And it is this post which sums up why Lambert has been a bit unlucky and I agree with your point here, but it is also the final part of the post which sums up his biggest flaw so far which is relieing too much on youth.  You don't have to spend bucket loads to get some decent experience into the side.  Hopefully he has learnt from that mistake and will put things right this summer should he get the chance.

[kippaxvilla2]

My latest contribution to this thread.  I can't do essay style posts.