The Takeover Thread - Recon Group - NOW WITH NEW POLL

[Malandro]

I have a gun and a foul temper?

At least shoot them with a smile on your face

[IAmTheOneIanOlney]

What we need to sort things out isn't fewer immigrants (who are net contributors to the economy in any case), but fewer pensioners.

When does the cull start? Might have to give my dad a heads up, he's not too quick these days.

[Matt Collins]

The stats clearly show that immigrants put in more in the way of taxes than they take out. From my PoV a country with an ageing population - more retirees and fewer in work to pay for them - is mad to reject hard working immigrants who put in more than they take out. I do think there is an effect on wages for some which is a factor to consider. But that's why the living wage is interesting.

[Des Little]

When did this thread become Newsnight?

[LeeB]

When did this thread become Newsnight?

When Kirsty Wark called out Cameron as a "plastic cockney West Ham slag"

[pauliewalnuts]

When did this thread become Newsnight?

"And here's Arts Editor Will Gompertz on the design of the new Villa kit"

[aev]

When did this thread become Newsnight?

"And here's Arts Editor Will Gompertz on the design of the new Villa kit"

His hair is remarkable - makes Grealish look amateur.

[clash city rocker]

Like my 87 year old dad said..I need my pension to afford going up the villa...If state pensions are costing the country billions then perhaps mean testing should be brought in with question number 1 being...will you use some of your pension on supporting AVFC ? If the answer is yes then pass go and collect £200..

[old man villa fan]

I made a comment about the chinese a few pages back relating to the fact our beloved PM has signed a free trade agreement with China that allows chinese workers to work in Australia. We have twenty five percent youth unemployment and all the car factories are just about to close putting thousands out of work. I don't care which country the workers come from the policy is plain stupid. If thats racist the worlds gone mad.

Will these Chinese people not pay taxes that build schools and hospitals, buy houses, food and clothes? Won't people who work in those industries benefit from increased trade?

It's fine to disagree but it's not plain stupid in my view.

Depends whether it's a short term gain at the expense of a long term future.  I do not know enough about Australia to comment.

In this country the massive recent rise in population as put enormous pressures on our public infrastructure at a time when we can least afford to be spending money on new schools, hospitals etc., resulting in cuts in services to balance the increased expenditure.  The problem is that when the increase in foreign workers is at the lower end of the pay-scale, the extra revenue in tax is small in comparison.

The population has hardly risen massively, and it isn't the growth in population that is the main cause of reduced services, it is the increasingly large cuts in public spending.

The problem with low wage jobs not contributing so much to the tax base isn't something that is particularly a problem with immigrants, it is a problem with the UK economy full stop - a disproportionately large number of the jobs created in the last five years have been low wage. We have the highest percentage of low wage, unskilled jobs than almost the entirety of western europe, something like 20 percent earning less than the Living Wage.

Still, when the state is reduced to the smallest it has been since the 1930s, the fact that we're producing such low tax receipts won't matter, because there won't be any "state" by modern definition to pay for.

It is going to be interesting to see what happens (see recent announcements) when the government starts to massively reduce in-employment benefits, too, given the enormous numbers of people in this country who need these to get by.

Incidentally, the one population demographic that has really had an enormous impact on the economy is the 65+ group - almost half of the entire UK national benefit spend goes on the state pension (jobseekers allowance is about 3 percent, by comparison).

What we need to sort things out isn't fewer immigrants (who are net contributors to the economy in any case), but fewer pensioners.

Most of your points are valid but none of them answered my points on expenditure on schools and hospitals for the increased population.

As an example, it costs the state (our taxes) around £70,000 to educate a child for the 11 years at school.  With an increasing young population, most of that expense is required now to build new schools.  Based on around 12% public expenditure on education, the average worker would not pay enough tax in a lifetime to put one child through education.

I would say population has increased significantly.  When I started school in the early 1960's the population was 52m and in now stands at 64.6m, an increase of nearly 25%.  The growth has been 0.4m in the 1970's, 1.1m in the 1980's, 1.7m in the 1990's, 4.0m in the 2,000's and projected to be in excess of 5m in 2010's.

Don't disagree on pension expenditure but a large portion is made up from contributions through NI, although it is doubtful whether contributions will meet the expense in the years to come.

Statistics can be used selectively to demonstrate any point of view.

[pauliewalnuts]

I think if you're looking at increasing expenditure on hospitals, then you're going to have to look at the growing demands of an ageing population - that's a direct answer to your point on population.

The problem in that sense is not increasing population, it is that the demographic is changing so much - even in the early 60s time frame you mentioned - that the demands are way, way higher.

Immigrants are a net contributor to the economy. They're a pretty long way from being even amongst the biggest influencing factors in the imbalance of the economy.

You're precisely right about the young population too, mind. That's a particular problem in Birmingham which has a double whammy of a large amount of low-band council tax housing and the youngest population of any of major western european cities, meaning revenue is always going to struggle to cover the cost of education.

I agree with much of what you say, what i disagree with is the implication that immigration is a particularly big contributor to the public finance problems we have. It isn't. In fact, I'd say the really big problem about immigration is that a disproportionately large amount of time is spent talking about it in politics - because it's an emotive issue which seems to grab lots of people, despite the vast majority of them ignoring economic facts - while the really big, structural issues facing this country go by, unchallenged.

[old man villa fan]

I think I will leave it there as we are getting into politics.

Will say that I can get a cheap hand car wash now though.

[Sexual Ealing]

They come over here, paying for our pensioners. It makes you sick.

[pauliewalnuts]

They come over here, paying for our pensioners. It makes you sick.

Ha ha ha. Very good.

[saunders_heroes]

Well if we're getting taken over soon the club has done a hell of a job keeping it secret. Not even a sniff in the press.

[pauliewalnuts]

Well if we're getting taken over soon the club has done a hell of a job keeping it secret. Not even a sniff in the press.

Which is precisely the reason I think it'll happen soon, and with absolutely no indication it is happening.

No news is good news.