The Takeover Thread - Recon Group - NOW WITH NEW POLL

[RussellC]

Nail on head Paulie.

[dave.woodhall]

If we're comparing where we are now to where we were when Randy took over, I think Jon's got a point. Plenty of things might have happened in between, but I'm trying to think how our current situation is much better than when Doug left us.

We could make a list?

It wasn't whether things are better or not on the pitch, which is debatable, it was whether anything has been better at any point since 2006, which it clearly has. Should a new owner take over soon he will have much more to work with than Randy did, so it's wrong to say we'd never know he'd been here.

[Logical]

Good post Paulie, I agree with all of it.

[paul_e]

As Dave W says, your arguing a totally different point.

Between 2006 and now there have been a lot of big changes in the background, yes the results haven't been good enough but the work on the training facilities and in the community can't be discounted because of that.  Will Lerner's ownership be seen as a period of success, clearly the answer is no.  Has he done anything that has been of benefit to the club either short or long term during that period, the only sensible answer to that is yes.

He made 1 terrible mistake in backing the wrong horse when he took over and has made a number of mistakes since trying to recover from the damage that came from that first 1.  It's not fair to call him a dunce (or other terms) because of that though, he put in a lot of money and tried his best to support his managers where he could, yes we want him to sell so we can move on but he deserves a bit more respect than the 2 comments that started this conversation.  The real vitriol should be saved for owners like the the little team from small heath have, or the shysters that nearly killed off Portsmouth.

[Toronto Villa]

He will sell for whatever he can get.

I predict we will never hear from or see him again.

Custodian my arse.

Seeing as we haven't heard from him or seen him in about 4 years, will anyone even notice the tattooed ankled dunce was ever here?

Do you really think there's been no improvement in any aspect of the club over the past eight years, or are you just trying to score a cheap point?

I really have never understood why some people cannot compartmentalise their criticism. If something isn't going well then everything has to be shit. Why not just look at things without a broad brush and say some things at our club are really incredible and very well done, while other things have been disappointing and need improvement? I realise the first team dominates the conversation and sways opinion but that doesn't mean that everything is as bad as that aspect of the club. Randy Lerner/Paul Faulkner deserve criticism for many things, but give them their due where it is deserved. It hasn't all been shit, and even now, not everything is bad at Aston Villa.

I think the key factor is that the things that really matter - to our core function as a football club - have been a pig's ear and have left us with a somewhat feeble squad which is settled into a routine of dodging relegation.

See things like the Joe Cole thing tweeted today about how he's sure the bomb squad players can help us beat relegation.

That sort of thing just drives home how low expectations are at the moment - and that is a direct result of four years of horrible struggle.

Yeah, the charity stuff, the restaurants, the stuff I mentioned in the post above, they're all great, but they are not the things that matter the most - given that we are a professional football club.

If you judge it by the things that do matter, then it's hard to spot many things which have been done well. In those terms, we are back where we started eight years ago.

off course and as I pointed out it does influence how fans view the club. The fact remains though, everything isn't shit. It wasn't that long ago things were going along quite well under MON in terms of results and final position in the league. We can back there again because positions below . Even as recently as the end of 2012/2013 there was renewed optimism for the following season. While last year as a disaster we can and will improve.

[Logical]

As Dave W says, your arguing a totally different point.

Between 2006 and now there have been a lot of big changes in the background, yes the results haven't been good enough but the work on the training facilities and in the community can't be discounted because of that.  Will Lerner's ownership be seen as a period of success, clearly the answer is no.  Has he done anything that has been of benefit to the club either short or long term during that period, the only sensible answer to that is yes.

He made 1 terrible mistake in backing the wrong horse when he took over and has made a number of mistakes since trying to recover from the damage that came from that first 1.  It's not fair to call him a dunce (or other terms) because of that though, he put in a lot of money and tried his best to support his managers where he could, yes we want him to sell so we can move on but he deserves a bit more respect than the 2 comments that started this conversation.  The real vitriol should be saved for owners like the the little team from small heath have, or the shysters that nearly killed off Portsmouth.

Have to disagree, you could have 5 star everything but that means nothing when you are not getting results, our lot could train down the local park or train in BHM it doesn't matter, they are not getting results which is the main aim of a football "business", no results no rewards it's that simple.

[brian green]

Excellent post Paulie. My personal perspective on the issue is that in Randy's ownership there has occurred a disaster to the club the like of which I have not seen in my time. I refer to the imposition upon the fans that the lowering of expectations is a positive and praiseworthy achievement The tenure of the last two managers has been underpinned by the assumptions that if the gambles (eg cheap young and hungry) do not come off the stature of the club can be diminished proportionately and the holy grail of Stability offered as justification. The big difference to me between Ellis Villa and Lerner Villa is the current acceptance of mediocrity as the most to which we can aspire.

[pauliewalnuts]

He will sell for whatever he can get.

I predict we will never hear from or see him again.

Custodian my arse.

Seeing as we haven't heard from him or seen him in about 4 years, will anyone even notice the tattooed ankled dunce was ever here?

Do you really think there's been no improvement in any aspect of the club over the past eight years, or are you just trying to score a cheap point?

I really have never understood why some people cannot compartmentalise their criticism. If something isn't going well then everything has to be shit. Why not just look at things without a broad brush and say some things at our club are really incredible and very well done, while other things have been disappointing and need improvement? I realise the first team dominates the conversation and sways opinion but that doesn't mean that everything is as bad as that aspect of the club. Randy Lerner/Paul Faulkner deserve criticism for many things, but give them their due where it is deserved. It hasn't all been shit, and even now, not everything is bad at Aston Villa.

I think the key factor is that the things that really matter - to our core function as a football club - have been a pig's ear and have left us with a somewhat feeble squad which is settled into a routine of dodging relegation.

See things like the Joe Cole thing tweeted today about how he's sure the bomb squad players can help us beat relegation.

That sort of thing just drives home how low expectations are at the moment - and that is a direct result of four years of horrible struggle.

Yeah, the charity stuff, the restaurants, the stuff I mentioned in the post above, they're all great, but they are not the things that matter the most - given that we are a professional football club.

If you judge it by the things that do matter, then it's hard to spot many things which have been done well. In those terms, we are back where we started eight years ago.

off course and as I pointed out it does influence how fans view the club. The fact remains though, everything isn't shit. It wasn't that long ago things were going along quite well under MON in terms of results and final position in the league. We can back there again because positions below . Even as recently as the end of 2012/2013 there was renewed optimism for the following season. While last year as a disaster we can and will improve.

re everything not being shit, yes, I know, but until the things that really matter stop being shit, it's not really going to change the way people see the club, and it is not really surprising that people overlook the improved things when they're so insignificant to the big problems.

It's like saying "I've been doing some DIY on my house, painted the doors, totally landscaped the gardens, and fitted a new kitchen" and taking solace from that when you've got no roof on the house, then wondering why your wife is so miserable about her life.

You are right, things were going well under MON but that was over four years ago now. We had four years of things going well, and then four of things going terribly - almost all due to mistakes made by our leadership - hence us being back where we started. Things didn't just start going badly through bad luck or divine intervention, it was mostly poor decision making.

We are perceived, by most of our fans, our players and the media as a club whose station is that of avoiding relegation. Which is exactly how we were perceived in 2006.

Well, we have got to improve, you are right there, because if we get any worse, we're going to be even closer to the drop, or actually make it. That's part of the reason there was renewed optimism after 2012/3 - the results were still dreadful, we still finished 15th. Yes, we thought we saw signs of improvement, but why didn't we get it? Part of the reason is the fact we failed to add signficantly better players to the squad, instead filling it with more "third choice" dross. Which is what I suspect we've done so far this summer.

The situation is made worse by the fact that there isn't really much sign that we are doing the things we need to improve significantly. Far from it, in fact, Randy's announcement he's had enough is going to start to look more and more like an "opt out" or an excuse of some sort.

[dave.woodhall]

Excellent post Paulie. My personal perspective on the issue is that in Randy's ownership there has occurred a disaster to the club the like of which I have not seen in my time. I refer to the imposition upon the fans that the lowering of expectations is a positive and praiseworthy achievement The tenure of the last two managers has been underpinned by the assumptions that if the gambles (eg cheap young and hungry) do not come off the stature of the club can be diminished proportionately and the holy grail of Stability offered as justification. The big difference to me between Ellis Villa and Lerner Villa is the current acceptance of mediocrity as the most to which we can aspire.

The only people who talk about expectations being lowered are those who use "They've lowered our expectations" as another stick with which to beat the board. To say that supporters accept such a situation because that's what management tell them, implying that they've in some way been hypnotised or manipulated is an enormous insult. I don't know anyone who is happy with the current state of affairs, I don't know anyone who would want us to stay as we are and I don't know anyone who would consider themselves influenced in such a way.

[pauliewalnuts]

Excellent post Paulie. My personal perspective on the issue is that in Randy's ownership there has occurred a disaster to the club the like of which I have not seen in my time. I refer to the imposition upon the fans that the lowering of expectations is a positive and praiseworthy achievement The tenure of the last two managers has been underpinned by the assumptions that if the gambles (eg cheap young and hungry) do not come off the stature of the club can be diminished proportionately and the holy grail of Stability offered as justification. The big difference to me between Ellis Villa and Lerner Villa is the current acceptance of mediocrity as the most to which we can aspire.

The only people who talk about expectations being lowered are those who use "They've lowered our expectations" as another stick with which to beat the board. To say that supporters accept such a situation because that's what management tell them, implying that they've in some way been hypnotised or manipulated is an enormous insult. I don't know anyone who is happy with the current state of affairs, I don't know anyone who would want us to stay as we are and I don't know anyone who would consider themselves influenced in such a way.

I don't think they have consciously set out to lower our expectations, but I do think that our expectations have been lowered by the dreadful four years we've just had, and by the lack of any signal of anything resembling ambition coming from them.

In fact, I can't speak for anyone else, but my expectations would start to get off the floor if they did a single thing that made me think they were serious about making us competitive again. One single thing. One signal of intent.

Let alone act ambitiously, they don't even talk that way these days.

[Logical]

Excellent post Paulie. My personal perspective on the issue is that in Randy's ownership there has occurred a disaster to the club the like of which I have not seen in my time. I refer to the imposition upon the fans that the lowering of expectations is a positive and praiseworthy achievement The tenure of the last two managers has been underpinned by the assumptions that if the gambles (eg cheap young and hungry) do not come off the stature of the club can be diminished proportionately and the holy grail of Stability offered as justification. The big difference to me between Ellis Villa and Lerner Villa is the current acceptance of mediocrity as the most to which we can aspire.

The only people who talk about expectations being lowered are those who use "They've lowered our expectations" as another stick with which to beat the board. To say that supporters accept such a situation because that's what management tell them, implying that they've in some way been hypnotised or manipulated is an enormous insult. I don't know anyone who is happy with the current state of affairs, I don't know anyone who would want us to stay as we are and I don't know anyone who would consider themselves influenced in such a way.

Sorry pal but the board deserve all the stick they get and even more so after how the Villa PR machine and the board have treated fans and the disrespect they have shown our club.

[dave.woodhall]

Excellent post Paulie. My personal perspective on the issue is that in Randy's ownership there has occurred a disaster to the club the like of which I have not seen in my time. I refer to the imposition upon the fans that the lowering of expectations is a positive and praiseworthy achievement The tenure of the last two managers has been underpinned by the assumptions that if the gambles (eg cheap young and hungry) do not come off the stature of the club can be diminished proportionately and the holy grail of Stability offered as justification. The big difference to me between Ellis Villa and Lerner Villa is the current acceptance of mediocrity as the most to which we can aspire.

The only people who talk about expectations being lowered are those who use "They've lowered our expectations" as another stick with which to beat the board. To say that supporters accept such a situation because that's what management tell them, implying that they've in some way been hypnotised or manipulated is an enormous insult. I don't know anyone who is happy with the current state of affairs, I don't know anyone who would want us to stay as we are and I don't know anyone who would consider themselves influenced in such a way.

I don't think they have consciously set out to lower our expectations, but I do think that our expectations have been lowered by the dreadful four years we've just had, and by the lack of any signal of anything resembling ambition coming from them.

In fact, I can't speak for anyone else, but my expectations would start to get off the floor if they did a single thing that made me think they were serious about making us competitive again. One single thing. One signal of intent.

Let alone act ambitiously, they don't even talk that way these days.

I think that after the sky's the limit talk (which to be fair came more from us than them) of the early days they've wanted to be top six and have seen that as an achievable goal. Houllier might have done it, they probably saw McLeish as a necessary short-term evil to start the clear-out and believed Lambert would be the man for the long-term Project. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that at some stage towards the end of last season they realised he wasn't the right fit and Randy finally lost heart.     

[pauliewalnuts]

It's probably also worth noting that one of the things we've been paying for over the last four years, is the fact that the success achieved in the first four years was had at such a ridiculous price - over the top wages, piss poor management of squad assets, over the hill players sitting out fat contracts, letting MON buy an entire defence one season, then another entire defence the season after because he'd decided he didn't like the players he'd previously bought.

The first four years were bought by throwing money at it and next to no intelligent thought. The next four years were spent paying the price for that lack of nous.

They used to send General Krulak on here and he'd tell us not to worry about the money "we know what we're doing".

We even used to specifically raise the issue of the wage bill with him, but he'd just say the same thing.

Well, it turned out we were right to worry, and in particular about the wage bill. It turned out they didn't know what they were doing, and the club wound up in such financial constraints we've become relegation strugglers.

I am not having any of this accusing Randy of taking money out (which is nuts), of accusing him in acting in bad faith, or of not spending money - he has done - but to have spent that much money, whether it be on players, wages, sacking managers, the lot - and end up precisely back where we started, not just for the time being but for three or four years, is a pretty good indicator of some terrible management having gone on.

And that is also why people overlook things like the training ground, Acorns, VMF, community relations. It's hardly surprising, really.

[dave.woodhall]

It's probably also worth noting that one of the things we've been paying for over the last four years, is the fact that the success achieved in the first four years was had at such a ridiculous price - over the top wages, piss poor management of squad assets, over the hill players sitting out fat contracts, letting MON buy an entire defence one season, then another entire defence the season after because he'd decided he didn't like the players he'd previously bought.

The first four years were bought by throwing money at it and next to no intelligent thought. The next four years were spent paying the price for that lack of nous.

They used to send General Krulak on here and he'd tell us not to worry about the money "we know what we're doing".

We even used to specifically raise the issue of the wage bill with him, but he'd just say the same thing.

Well, it turned out we were right to worry, and in particular about the wage bill. It turned out they didn't know what they were doing, and the club wound up in such financial constraints we've become relegation strugglers.

I am not having any of this accusing Randy of taking money out (which is nuts), of accusing him in acting in bad faith, or of not spending money - he has done - but to have spent that much money, whether it be on players, wages, sacking managers, the lot - and end up precisely back where we started, not just for the time being but for three or four years, is a pretty good indicator of some terrible management having gone on.

I'd call it disjointed and short-term, and as I said in the previous post, once they embarked on a long-term strategy only to realise it was flawed at the point when it should have started to improve, that's when Randy said "No mas".

[pauliewalnuts]

I think that after the sky's the limit talk (which to be fair came more from us than them) of the early days they've wanted to be top six and have seen that as an achievable goal. Houllier might have done it, they probably saw McLeish as a necessary short-term evil to start the clear-out and believed Lambert would be the man for the long-term Project. It's not beyond the realms of possibility that at some stage towards the end of last season they realised he wasn't the right fit and Randy finally lost heart.     

If they've realised he's not right, why is he still here?

I think you're right, he's lost heart, and I can understand why, but I don't see why that is an excuse for just floating along in a condition of paralysis like we are now.