The Takeover Thread - Recon Group - NOW WITH NEW POLL

[Brend'Watkins]

You see I don't get this.  As it stands they can't expand but what's to say they buy make an offer that can't be refused for houses around the ground where they want to expand, even compensate those who remain for the inconvenience of bigger crowds.  It might mean taking a few streets out of terraced houses with limited market value, a cost of £10 - £15 million or so in total.  Then they can refurbish/expand on the current site over a few seasons with minimal disruption.  It may sound simplistic  I know as Stadia developments have supermarkets/hotels and other stuff as part of any brand new development  showing more salable assets for the club making the club worth more.  Those developments could come in time.  This has  probably been looked at already or has it?

Thing is, though, it's the price to buy the club plus the price of buying up those houses (and the lengthy process involved - Liverpool bought up houses one after the other for years around their ground, they pretty much killed it as a residential area, strangled it, according to annoyed residents), plus the price of doing up or rebuilding the stadium, and all that to get you to where Villa are already.

Plus, then you are always going to be running the second biggest club in the city, whereas there's nothing short of some sort of catastrophic meteor strike on B6 that could ever make Villa not the biggest club in Birmingham.

Everton are a great club, with almost as much tradition as us, but the fact is, they have enough "yeah buts" about them to put people off buying the club.

I agree with you Paulie that Everton are way behind where we currently are with our development and our massive potential for future development.  They have been talking about it for a very long time and could have followed the Liverpool model which would have seen them further down the road now instead of still talking about it.  Your point regarding destroying the residential area is valid but having said that, those houses, terraced houses, around Everton although prices are going for less than £70 K a piece, a quick google tells me they were £34K 10 year ago so they have missed the boat somewhat. Even offering £100K a piece as an incentive could take out 2 streets at a cost of say £8 million or so.  Sufficient to get them a 50,000 stadium possibly over time.  Working with the council I'm sure they could find some brownfield site to keep the residents within the area and one which is close by, almost a residential regeneration if you like.

[Ads]

Its not just houses, there is a school there too.

[paul_e]

I never said it was impossible, but it's a massive undertaking to find the space to expand Goodison to 50k.  Villa park you're looking a replacing the north stand with something similar to the Holte, you lose the car park but otherwise there's no great restrictions, the extra time and costs at Everton makes it a massive difference.  Then you can add on the catchment area as well.

All of that matters little though when you account for the fact that Everton are classed as for sale but the truth of that seems pretty debatable.  I don't think Kenwright has any intention to sell but saying he is willing to just gives him a get out when the fans come demanding big spending, Ashley has done largely the same at Newcastle.

[Dante Lavelli]

Typically with a development of that size there would be a number of planning requirements (Section 106s) to build schools / houses / parks etc. 
x2 if a school is actually being demolished as part of the development so its not just the cost of buying the houses which would have to be factored in, the council would ensure that they get their cut too.

On that basis I think Villa would/should be a more attractive purchase as £50m or so could get us to a comparable level on the pitch where as they'd be looking at a few £100m to build an infrastructure which we already have.  Factor in the catchment area of each club and Villa would win hands down. 

Newcastle is a different matter, they already have the stadium and (as much as we hate it) the Toon Army / Geordie Nation thing could easiliy be branded and sold to foreign lands.  I also think there untapped potential in either Swansea or Cardiff as it'd be easy to brand a club as "the big Welsh one" to the rest of the world.

[brian green]

The scheme my firm prepared for  French clients in the 80s hinged on the buying up not of houses around the ground but an access route to the M6. Get that and everything else falls into place.

[pauliewalnuts]

Typically with a development of that size there would be a number of planning requirements (Section 106s) to build schools / houses / parks etc. 
x2 if a school is actually being demolished as part of the development so its not just the cost of buying the houses which would have to be factored in, the council would ensure that they get their cut too.

On that basis I think Villa would/should be a more attractive purchase as £50m or so could get us to a comparable level on the pitch where as they'd be looking at a few £100m to build an infrastructure which we already have.  Factor in the catchment area of each club and Villa would win hands down. 

I don't even think it is mainly about cost, there's a huge amount of legal process to get through if you're buying up and bulldozing homes and schools to make your ground bigger. Why get stuck in that if there's a similar club who don't have any of those issues to deal with, and who aren't going to be one park away from a revitalised Liverpool?

Actually, I know it's easy to say, and I understand the arguments against, but if ever there was an example of two teams that really should groundshare, it is Liverpool and Everton.

[pauliewalnuts]

You see I don't get this.  As it stands they can't expand but what's to say they buy make an offer that can't be refused for houses around the ground where they want to expand, even compensate those who remain for the inconvenience of bigger crowds.  It might mean taking a few streets out of terraced houses with limited market value, a cost of £10 - £15 million or so in total.  Then they can refurbish/expand on the current site over a few seasons with minimal disruption.  It may sound simplistic  I know as Stadia developments have supermarkets/hotels and other stuff as part of any brand new development  showing more salable assets for the club making the club worth more.  Those developments could come in time.  This has  probably been looked at already or has it?

Thing is, though, it's the price to buy the club plus the price of buying up those houses (and the lengthy process involved - Liverpool bought up houses one after the other for years around their ground, they pretty much killed it as a residential area, strangled it, according to annoyed residents), plus the price of doing up or rebuilding the stadium, and all that to get you to where Villa are already.

Plus, then you are always going to be running the second biggest club in the city, whereas there's nothing short of some sort of catastrophic meteor strike on B6 that could ever make Villa not the biggest club in Birmingham.

Everton are a great club, with almost as much tradition as us, but the fact is, they have enough "yeah buts" about them to put people off buying the club.

I agree with you Paulie that Everton are way behind where we currently are with our development and our massive potential for future development.  They have been talking about it for a very long time and could have followed the Liverpool model which would have seen them further down the road now instead of still talking about it.  Your point regarding destroying the residential area is valid but having said that, those houses, terraced houses, around Everton although prices are going for less than £70 K a piece, a quick google tells me they were £34K 10 year ago so they have missed the boat somewhat. Even offering £100K a piece as an incentive could take out 2 streets at a cost of say £8 million or so.  Sufficient to get them a 50,000 stadium possibly over time.  Working with the council I'm sure they could find some brownfield site to keep the residents within the area and one which is close by, almost a residential regeneration if you like.

The houses are cheap, but not everyone is going to want to move. I also don't know what new owners are going to think about offering tens of thousands of pounds over the asking price to get people to move - and what happens if some of them take it, but a few decide there is no amount of money that'll get them to move house?

I would have a lot of sympathy for people in that situation, football clubs can't just make every problem go away with money, regardless of what people want, but I'm sure they'd try, along lines you suggested.

It's just a right old palaver getting past obstacles like that.

Everton have been looking for a brownfield site for ages - remember that Kirby thing?

I honestly think that, other than owners with the cash of Mansour, even most billionaires would think twice about getting stuck into something like that.

[dave.woodhall]

Another thing to bear in mind is that, on first appearances anyway, the population around Goodison seems deeper-rooted than Villa Park. They're less likely to want to move. It's also a less attractive place to get non-matchday income.

[Dante Lavelli]

The scheme my firm prepared for  French clients in the 80s hinged on the buying up not of houses around the ground but an access route to the M6. Get that and everything else falls into place.

Now that would be a good (but expensivve) idea.  The value of the real estate would rocket. 

[Brend'Watkins]

Another thing to bear in mind is that, on first appearances anyway, the population around Goodison seems deeper-rooted than Villa Park. They're less likely to want to move. It's also a less attractive place to get non-matchday income.

Maybe so, it's not an area you'd call transient and appears to me on the times I've been there to be a every tight knit community. I wonder if the club ever canvassed the residents to the idea of selling up. Market value would get short shrift but 25% above might get the required response.

I know it's a bit more complicated than buying up a few streets of houses, with schools, amenities etc coming into the mix, at the same time the value of those houses is artificially high because of the ground being on the door step, Should Everton move out eventually then the price of them will drop.

[john e]

Everton are and will always be in Liverpool's shadow. We darken the sky for our neighbours.

Man City were in the same position a few years ago. However, as someone stated, we are a more attractive buy than Everton.

There are 2 differences:

1. Man City had just moved to a fantastic new stadium, Everton's ground is in desperate need to upgrading/replacing but has no space to expand.
2. I'm not convinced Everton really are for sale, same with Newcastle, both are reluctant sellers as far as I can see, whereas Man City (and now us) are openly in need of a sale.

I've been to Goodison Park and in your words Man City's fantastic new stadium,
And I would take Goodison every time, one of my favourite prem grounds
Whereas City's is a soulless abode

I know that is not what you were saying, it's just what I'm saying

[adrenachrome]

Everton are and will always be in Liverpool's shadow. We darken the sky for our neighbours.

Man City were in the same position a few years ago. However, as someone stated, we are a more attractive buy than Everton.

There are 2 differences:

1. Man City had just moved to a fantastic new stadium, Everton's ground is in desperate need to upgrading/replacing but has no space to expand.
2. I'm not convinced Everton really are for sale, same with Newcastle, both are reluctant sellers as far as I can see, whereas Man City (and now us) are openly in need of a sale.

I've been to Goodison Park and in your words Man City's fantastic new stadium,
And I would take Goodison every time, one of my favourite prem grounds
Whereas City's is a soulless abode

I know that is not what you were saying, it's just what I'm saying

So what you're saying is
I know what I like, and I like what I know
Getting better in your wardrobe, stepping one beyond your show.

[john e]

Everton are and will always be in Liverpool's shadow. We darken the sky for our neighbours.

Man City were in the same position a few years ago. However, as someone stated, we are a more attractive buy than Everton.

There are 2 differences:

1. Man City had just moved to a fantastic new stadium, Everton's ground is in desperate need to upgrading/replacing but has no space to expand.
2. I'm not convinced Everton really are for sale, same with Newcastle, both are reluctant sellers as far as I can see, whereas Man City (and now us) are openly in need of a sale.

I've been to Goodison Park and in your words Man City's fantastic new stadium,
And I would take Goodison every time, one of my favourite prem grounds
Whereas City's is a soulless abode

I know that is not what you were saying, it's just what I'm saying

So what you're saying is
I know what I like, and I like what I know
Getting better in your wardrobe, stepping one beyond your show.

Exactly what I'm saying

[dave.woodhall]

Another thing to bear in mind is that, on first appearances anyway, the population around Goodison seems deeper-rooted than Villa Park. They're less likely to want to move. It's also a less attractive place to get non-matchday income.

Maybe so, it's not an area you'd call transient and appears to me on the times I've been there to be a every tight knit community. I wonder if the club ever canvassed the residents to the idea of selling up. Market value would get short shrift but 25% above might get the required response.

I know it's a bit more complicated than buying up a few streets of houses, with schools, amenities etc coming into the mix, at the same time the value of those houses is artificially high because of the ground being on the door step, Should Everton move out eventually then the price of them will drop.

Are you sure? If that's the case it's the only place in the country where a football ground adds to property values.

[Percy McCarthy]

Good debate chaps. Does anyone remember if we got involved in any of these type of dodgy practises to get rid of the houses in Witton Lane?