Nathan Baker - Sold

[SoccerHQ]

Is there anybody ahead of Baker as this year's player of the season so far?

Damning with the very faintest of praise, but I don't think we've had too many better players up to now.

Really, I thought he was useless in the last two months after being o.k for much of the season, like the team.

I had him as my young player last year. Save the final run in where everyone turned useless, I thought he was playing well and had developed nicely. He has been our best defender this season. He wins everything in the air and closes down better than most. he was a lot better than Vlaar today.

[Dave]

Really, I thought he was useless in the last two months after being o.k for much of the season, like the team.

[/quote]
Is that not what Peter is saying? That he was fine for most of the season, then like the rest of the team he was rubbish for the last two months?

[Monty]

I still don't particularly rate him but I do like his attitude and commitment.

A return to the Vlaar/Senderos partnership will, in my view, improve us. We were very solid defensively in the first few weeks and, given our lack of goals, getting back to that offers our best hope of improving results at the moment.

Nail on head.

His buccaneer tackles might be fan pleasers but they're generally the result of him falling asleep and finding himself horribly out of position. He's also the worst passer in the entire team and his regular blind hoofs forward just bring more pressure on to us.

The fact he's in the first team shows how desperately poor this side is.

I agree with this. The great defenders very rarely had to make Big Tackles, and were generally better than to boof it forward in blind panic.

[peter w]

Really? Has well as Hutton has defended he has offered nothing going forward. I think Lowton has looked far better since coming back.

Lowton was okay yesterday, certainly going forward. It was his best game in over a year. The previous games he's been in I thought he looked pretty shit to be honest and very suspect defensively. He still did somewhat yesterday.

Hutton has been very good. But honestly it's Lambert's insistence on our fullbacks being our only creative outlet which is the problem. Hutton's never had a fantastic delivery. It shouldn't be all on him/Lowton and Cissokho to create all our chances.
Since we've spent 90% of the season defending though, Hutton's done that job very well. And often he's been the only player who's shown a desire and drive to try and make something happen in attack. Whilst our midfield seem content to pass sideways and disappear from games.
We've missed his desire and resoluteness I think. Lowton's a little boy lost at this level more often than not.

Lowton was pretty solid yesterday and defended very well. A lot of balls were aimed down his channel second half and he covered nearly everything and was always a willing 'out'. He didn't get forward too much because he had no-one to cross it to with Benteke out so he came inside looking to up the tempo with some give and go's. Towards the end he did a very good job of snuffing a lot of West Ham's attempted attacks and crosses out.

The way we are set up with the diamond means he , and Cissokho, are even more exposed and he think since his return he has stood up well to the task. i wouldn't drop him when Hutton returns.

[SoccerHQ]

Really, I thought he was useless in the last two months after being o.k for much of the season, like the team.

Is that not what Peter is saying? That he was fine for most of the season, then like the rest of the team he was rubbish for the last two months?
[/quote]

It is, I missed a comma in his post where I thought he said Baker was still good while everyone turned shite in the run in.

[peter w]

I still don't particularly rate him but I do like his attitude and commitment.

A return to the Vlaar/Senderos partnership will, in my view, improve us. We were very solid defensively in the first few weeks and, given our lack of goals, getting back to that offers our best hope of improving results at the moment.

Nail on head.

His buccaneer tackles might be fan pleasers but they're generally the result of him falling asleep and finding himself horribly out of position. He's also the worst passer in the entire team and his regular blind hoofs forward just bring more pressure on to us.

The fact he's in the first team shows how desperately poor this side is.

I agree with this. The great defenders very rarely had to make Big Tackles, and were generally better than to boof it forward in blind panic.

He doesn't make the big last challenge for any other reason that his big long legs and decent pace helps him get back, or across, to cover. He's getting better at it too and is rarely judging them incorrectly. Nor is he doing because he's out of position it's usually on the back of a ball being played down the channel and our centre-halves being exposed. Tony Adams made a career out of it and he's not as good as Baker is at the same age.

I agree with his passing but he is okay on the ball. He's nowhere near as good as the other centre-halves on the ball and has little composure when under pressure so will resort to the long ball. But, if you drill into him to hit the channels at that point then he, and the forwards not what to do and where to play that pass.

I like Baker and of course I can see the faults. But, I think he has looked our 2nd best centre-half after Senderos this season. It was also noticeable that although the way were going to win headers with players they brought on yesterday, we didn't win nearly as many in the air after Baker went off. Ithink he would have dealt with Carroll comfortably.

[Monty]

I'm sorry, I just can't agree. I don't know if I've ever seen a defender turn in panic and sprint in the direction of the spot he should have been more than Baker.

[peter w]

That's age and a lack of a leader next to him talking to him throughout most of a career that should have been spent mostly on the bench or on loan learning. He's had to learn from the front line. He's taken it upon himself to try and be the leader. He was very rash and raw but is slowly but surely developing and maturing. Vlaar isn't good for him but I think Senderos will. Although it's a season or two after it should have been.

[PeterWithesShin]

I've said many times in the past, Baker will be a James Collins type defender. A level below very good, but still good enough to have a decent career.

[Ad@m]

That's age and a lack of a leader next to him talking to him throughout most of a career that should have been spent mostly on the bench or on loan learning. He's had to learn from the front line. He's taken it upon himself to try and be the leader. He was very rash and raw but is slowly but surely developing and maturing. Vlaar isn't good for him but I think Senderos will. Although it's a season or two after it should have been.

Exactly. He'll be 24 before this season's out, he's not a kid anymore. At what point does potential run out and you accept he's just not good enough?

One of Lambert's biggest failings in my eyes is his apparent complete inability to develop a player. Baker and Clark are prime examples of that.

[dave.woodhall]

That's age and a lack of a leader next to him talking to him throughout most of a career that should have been spent mostly on the bench or on loan learning. He's had to learn from the front line. He's taken it upon himself to try and be the leader. He was very rash and raw but is slowly but surely developing and maturing. Vlaar isn't good for him but I think Senderos will. Although it's a season or two after it should have been.

Exactly. He'll be 24 before this season's out, he's not a kid anymore. At what point does potential run out and you accept he's just not good enough?

One of Lambert's biggest failings in my eyes is his apparent complete inability to develop a player. Baker and Clark are prime examples of that.

Yet he's turned Delph into an England international.

[Ad@m]

That's age and a lack of a leader next to him talking to him throughout most of a career that should have been spent mostly on the bench or on loan learning. He's had to learn from the front line. He's taken it upon himself to try and be the leader. He was very rash and raw but is slowly but surely developing and maturing. Vlaar isn't good for him but I think Senderos will. Although it's a season or two after it should have been.

Exactly. He'll be 24 before this season's out, he's not a kid anymore. At what point does potential run out and you accept he's just not good enough?

One of Lambert's biggest failings in my eyes is his apparent complete inability to develop a player. Baker and Clark are prime examples of that.

Yet he's turned Delph into an England international.

1 improvement vs two dozen who have stagnated doesn't really prove your point.

[dave.woodhall]

That's age and a lack of a leader next to him talking to him throughout most of a career that should have been spent mostly on the bench or on loan learning. He's had to learn from the front line. He's taken it upon himself to try and be the leader. He was very rash and raw but is slowly but surely developing and maturing. Vlaar isn't good for him but I think Senderos will. Although it's a season or two after it should have been.

Exactly. He'll be 24 before this season's out, he's not a kid anymore. At what point does potential run out and you accept he's just not good enough?

One of Lambert's biggest failings in my eyes is his apparent complete inability to develop a player. Baker and Clark are prime examples of that.

Yet he's turned Delph into an England international.

1 improvement vs two dozen who have stagnated doesn't really prove your point.

It does when you say "complete inability". There are other players who he's brought in and improved - Benteke for one - which is what makes him so annoying. When he does try to do what we want he sometimes succeeds, then goes back into his tried and failed methods.

[peter w]

How many of these players has he improved and how many have developed their natural ability due to just that and age? Given his more than apparent lack in developing the squad into a decent team, I am sceptical that he has had too much to do with developing individual players.

[dave.woodhall]

Thew good things are down to someone else and the bad things are down to him. That figures.