Transfer Speculation / Gossip

[Dave]

Alright, once you quit twisting people's words and arguments to fit in with your narrow-minded world view.

Deal?

Yet you think nothing of twisting my words into some kind of "triumphant" sneer when there was none whatsoever.  Sort out your own narrow mindedness before you go pointing the finger at me.
Deal?

I'm not sure I've even given an opinion on the topic to be narrow-minded or not, but you seem to have basically ignored all of Paul's points and decided that he's said something that he hasn't.

And added an excitable "Ha!" for good measure. I'm not overly sure why.

[pauliewalnuts]

Revisionist bullshit? Ha!
Take a look at our squad now and then compare it to the squad from 4 or so years ago and then tell me we replaced our best players properly.

I think if you focus on "replacing our best players", then you can't see the wood for the trees.

It's not really about how we replaced those players - poorly, as it turned out, but not necessarily cheaply, although we tried to replace both Young and Downing with one player - it is about how we have managed the squad in general over that period.

Basically, we've totally fucked it up. We've spent huge amounts of money and just sat and watched as the value we accumulated in the squad leaked out. Following on from that, we've bought a succession of really pretty poor players.

Bennett
KEA
Luna
Tonev
Sylla
Bowery

Clearly nothing like good enough.

If we want to improve, then financially we are going to have to stand up and be counted, we can not go on as we have done for the last few years. It has disaster written all over it.

I am inclined to think that "10m for fees AND wages" story is untrue, but if our spending were to be anything like at that level, then these people would be truly gambling with the future of the club. The league is going to be even more awash than ever with money this year, we can't just pretend we live in a bubble where we're not compared with other clubs - that's the whole point of football, you're comparing yourself to the rest, and if we think we can just bob along and not invest, then we're going to pay the price at some point.

I just have zero trust in these people any more. I think they're on autopilot, they've given up, all they want to do is minimise the money we spend.

We've become a club who don't even pretend to have any ambition - see the likes of the Joe Cole comments last week about how he is confident our returning players can help us avoid relegation. What does that say about our ambitions? How are we any different from the rest of the dross that perenially fights to avoid relegation? Nice ground, excellent history, but really, how do we differ from these clubs?

I'll wait and see who else we sign, but can any one of us seriously say that, had they been told at the end of last season that our first two signings would be Senderos and Joe Cole they wouldn't be worried?

We can't avoid it any more, we have absolutely got to start to spend proper money on decent footballers. Lerner and Faulkner have to realise that just because you really want something to be true (like the entire "just use loads of young players and in time they become ace" myth they bought into) doesn't mean it actually happens.

It doesn't really matter if Milner was replaced badly or if Barry's replacement was poor by comparison, all that stuff is in the past, we absolutely have to decide if we're going to pretend to have something approaching ambition, and if we are, we've got to start to show that financially.

Agree 100%. I'll pay you to be my spokesman from now on.

No offence, but I'd rather apply for Andy Coulson's old job.

[paul_e]

Revisionist bullshit? Ha!
Take a look at our squad now and then compare it to the squad from 4 or so years ago and then tell me we replaced our best players properly.

I think if you focus on "replacing our best players", then you can't see the wood for the trees.

It's not really about how we replaced those players - poorly, as it turned out, but not necessarily cheaply, although we tried to replace both Young and Downing with one player - it is about how we have managed the squad in general over that period.

Basically, we've totally fucked it up. We've spent huge amounts of money and just sat and watched as the value we accumulated in the squad leaked out. Following on from that, we've bought a succession of really pretty poor players.

Bennett
KEA
Luna
Tonev
Sylla
Bowery

Clearly nothing like good enough.

If we want to improve, then financially we are going to have to stand up and be counted, we can not go on as we have done for the last few years. It has disaster written all over it.

I am inclined to think that "10m for fees AND wages" story is untrue, but if our spending were to be anything like at that level, then these people would be truly gambling with the future of the club. The league is going to be even more awash than ever with money this year, we can't just pretend we live in a bubble where we're not compared with other clubs - that's the whole point of football, you're comparing yourself to the rest, and if we think we can just bob along and not invest, then we're going to pay the price at some point.

I just have zero trust in these people any more. I think they're on autopilot, they've given up, all they want to do is minimise the money we spend.

We've become a club who don't even pretend to have any ambition - see the likes of the Joe Cole comments last week about how he is confident our returning players can help us avoid relegation. What does that say about our ambitions? How are we any different from the rest of the dross that perenially fights to avoid relegation? Nice ground, excellent history, but really, how do we differ from these clubs?

I'll wait and see who else we sign, but can any one of us seriously say that, had they been told at the end of last season that our first two signings would be Senderos and Joe Cole they wouldn't be worried?

We can't avoid it any more, we have absolutely got to start to spend proper money on decent footballers. Lerner and Faulkner have to realise that just because you really want something to be true (like the entire "just use loads of young players and in time they become ace" myth they bought into) doesn't mean it actually happens.

It doesn't really matter if Milner was replaced badly or if Barry's replacement was poor by comparison, all that stuff is in the past, we absolutely have to decide if we're going to pretend to have something approaching ambition, and if we are, we've got to start to show that financially.

Agree 100%. I'll pay you to be my spokesman from now on.

How can you agree 100%, his first line is an arrow directly to the centre of the argument you've been making until now.

[ozzjim]

Paulie, it is simply not going to happen under Lerner. So the answer is clear, he wants out and we are stuck on a little island in the middle of the sea, which is rising all the time. Rather than find a solution, Lerner has waived the white flag. The only folly in all of that is he seems* to have failed to realise that unless he does invest 20 million (that should really be covered by TV money) on 3 players plus their wages of that level, he is essentially playing chicken with about 75-100 million of the valuation of the club. Bloody silly game to play if you ask me, but then I am not him.

We need to buy some spine and some creativity. That are significantly better than Cole and Senderos.

*Seems as there is 2 months to go of the window. We all know deep down that Niklas Bentdner is about the highest our aspiration will reach though.

[pauliewalnuts]

Oh, don't get me wrong, I am under no illusion of the financial deep freeze situation we are in.

I am actually starting to feel more kinship for Lambert, given the absurd working conditions.

Randy has done a lot of good things for Villa, but I honestly don't think I could ever forgive, or overlook, the totality and speed of his disengagement from the club.

He's basically made it extremely clear (after the club informally denying it for two years) that he's got bored.

We deserve better than that.

[ozzjim]

I think some kind of plan that says right, we have put right the MON wrongs, we have a manager we believe in and lets back him within the financial envelope of the TV money moving forward, but the wage bill seems to have been stripped to a kind of Wigan level, not even a Stoke level. Very very strange.

[paul_e]

I think some kind of plan that says right, we have put right the MON wrongs, we have a manager we believe in and lets back him within the financial envelope of the TV money moving forward, but the wage bill seems to have been stripped to a kind of Wigan level, not even a Stoke level. Very very strange.

I'm not that sure, given our turnover in recent season we should be aiming for a wage bill of around £50m, which seems to be about where we are right now.  The main issue is still that we have a lot of money tied up in players who just don't offer us enough.  Bent on his wages playing and scoring is worth it, Bent on his wages and not involved at all is 3-4m a year completely wasted.  Add Hutton, Nzog and Given and that becomes 12-14m that's completely dead money.  That's why we bombed them, it was a gamble to try to get a couple of them off the wage bill by any means necessary, it worked with Ireland, and led to Bent's wages being covered last season.  I don't think it was the right thing to do but I can understand the thinking.

That 12-14m is effectively 5-6 players in the Vlaar/Delph category, I reckon we can all agree that the squad would be in a much better state if we did that, I also think the 4-5m fees for those players would be considered if we had the funds available.  It's a pipe dream though because there's no chance we'll sell any of them except maybe nzog.

[saunders_heroes]

It was madness to bomb out Bent when we should have used him on the pitch. I'd even have Hutton in the team over the fullbacks we have now. What we've effectively done is reduce their value by bombing them out on loan so much.
I can't see it being anyone's decision other than Lerner - he really has been an absolute waste of space these last 4 years.

[saunders_heroes]

Alright, once you quit twisting people's words and arguments to fit in with your narrow-minded world view.

Deal?

Yet you think nothing of twisting my words into some kind of "triumphant" sneer when there was none whatsoever.  Sort out your own narrow mindedness before you go pointing the finger at me.
Deal?

I'm not sure I've even given an opinion on the topic to be narrow-minded or not, but you seem to have basically ignored all of Paul's points and decided that he's said something that he hasn't.

And added an excitable "Ha!" for good measure. I'm not overly sure why.

Don't let it worry you.

[hilts_coolerking]

replacing Barry with Downing and moving Milner inside was a poor decision?
Ireland was going to be as shit as it turned out?
Nzog was going to be as shit as it turned out?
Albrighton was going to go backwards for 2 years?

I realise those questions weren't directed at me but I thought signing Ireland was a terrible idea and said so at the time.  Beside the fact that we had no manager when we signed him, he was, is and always will be a total flake.  He was overvalued and not even a like for like replacement for Milner.

[LeeB]

replacing Barry with Downing and moving Milner inside was a poor decision?
Ireland was going to be as shit as it turned out?
Nzog was going to be as shit as it turned out?
Albrighton was going to go backwards for 2 years?

I realise those questions weren't directed at me but I thought signing Ireland was a terrible idea and said so at the time.  Beside the fact that we had no manager when we signed him, he was, is and always will be a total flake.  He was overvalued and not even a like for like replacement for Milner.
[/quote
Flake is an excellent description.

[paul_e]

replacing Barry with Downing and moving Milner inside was a poor decision?
Ireland was going to be as shit as it turned out?
Nzog was going to be as shit as it turned out?
Albrighton was going to go backwards for 2 years?

I realise those questions weren't directed at me but I thought signing Ireland was a terrible idea and said so at the time.  Beside the fact that we had no manager when we signed him, he was, is and always will be a total flake.  He was overvalued and not even a like for like replacement for Milner.

You were in a very small minority then, I wasn't totally convinced either I thought he'd had 6 months of looking world class so it all hinged on whether he could get back to that level, and he never has.

It was madness to bomb out Bent when we should have used him on the pitch. I'd even have Hutton in the team over the fullbacks we have now. What we've effectively done is reduce their value by bombing them out on loan so much.
I can't see it being anyone's decision other than Lerner - he really has been an absolute waste of space these last 4 years.

I just cant agree with that first line, Bent was out of the team on merit not because of some determination from Lambert to alienate him.  He also had the same under the legion of managers Fulham had last year.  The reality is his injuries have taken a yard of pace and he hasn't been able to adapt his game around that.

As for the last couple of points, lets repeat it.

By bombing them out we've reduced their value.
The only possible person who would want that is the owner.

Are you absolutely sure those 2 statements fit together?

[Dave Cooper please]

It was madness to bomb out Bent when we should have used him on the pitch.

Is that the Darren Bent who scored a massive three goals in 23 games for relegated Fulham?

[saunders_heroes]

It was madness to bomb out Bent when we should have used him on the pitch.

Is that the Darren Bent who scored a massive three goals in 23 games for relegated Fulham?

Yes. It's 3 goals more than Jorden Bowery scored.

[Gregorys Boy]

we survived with games to spare

I'm sorry, but that's positive spin in the extreme. We survived with 2 games to spare, and promptly proceeded to concede 7 goals and score none in those 2 games.

We had accumulated the amount of points it eventually took to survive by the end of March. We were fucking awful in the run in but essentially we were already safe.

But we hadn't really, if we had not beaten Hull three games from the end then there is a good chance we would have gone down.  The Chelsea result felt like a big moment, and I believed that we were all but safe, but I still thought that we needed two or three more points to be absolutely sure, and so it proved.

As for Learner one of his biggest flaws the last four years was just picking bad managers, and that can be one of the down sides of having a foreign owner who does not know much about the game.  In fairness to him Lambert always seemed a sound appointment I don't many Villa fans would have argued that at the time.