The Paul Lambert thread - poll reset after our capitulation to Hull

[andyh]

I think the lack of funds is being overplayed now if I'm honest.  Yes we haven't spent as much as we were doing but he's till been given a decent budget.  Wages seem to have been limited but if you look at our overall wage bill it's not like we're massively underspending compared to the sides in the league outside the top 6-7.

He's used that a shield for most of his time and it needs to stop now.

Absolutely, his excuses have run their course. The players don't seem to know how they are expected to play and has the Keane influence already lost its impact.

We look more like a bottom three club at this stage than last season.

I totally agree that the lack of funds excuse is (long) overplayed.
But, while you have got Lamberts buddies, like Charlie Nicolas, peddling that shit at every opportunity, then people who don't follow Villa, or (frankly) aren't really bothered about whats going on at the club, still believe that Lambert is working miracles in keeping us in the prem whilst simultaneously washing the kit, cutting the grass, marking out the pitches and driving the team coach, all due to lack of funds.         

[mr underhill]

talkshite were at it again last night heaping blame on Lerner and doing the hagiography bit on Lambert. Really irritating. The guy leads an inexplicably charmed life with the media and at this rate, this thread has got another four years to run. At least.

[Meanwood Villa]

I think the lack of funds is being overplayed now if I'm honest.  Yes we haven't spent as much as we were doing but he's till been given a decent budget.  Wages seem to have been limited but if you look at our overall wage bill it's not like we're massively underspending compared to the sides in the league outside the top 6-7.

He's used that a shield for most of his time and it needs to stop now.

Yep. He's had 5 windows and aside from re-signing Guzan and getting Benteke, there's not one player you can look at and say has been a success at this level. Westwood at a push, but even so, I don't think he's good enough for this level as a first 11 player. Sanchez will hopefully come good, and Kozak on his return.
The fact the majority of his signings are out on loan or sold on, or missing (Okra...Osaka...Okoara...that Danish lad) says a lot.

That we haven't made any money on any player since he took over is also in no small part down to Lambert. The whole bomb squad debacle was a total mess. We've now got players like Bent, N'Zogbia, formerly Ireland. They cost us a combined 36-40 million in fees. One left for nothing and the other two likely will too.
Even as cheap as most of his signings are, there's only 2-3 we could actually sell on for a profit at this point.

It may not be entirely Lamberts fault, but of course we also look set to lose Delph and Vlaar for nothing too. But still, we've not made money on a player since selling Ash and Downing in 2011. That's awful. If our place in life is to be a bottom feeder in the Prem these days, then making money on players is essential. It's a managers job to use his budget, and that includes selling players to raise money. He's de-valued far too many players. We're gonna end up shipping out the likes of Sylla, Tonev, Lowton, Bacuna, Luna, Bennett, Okore etc for next to nothing.

He's more or less stuck to two formations in his time. The 4-3-2-1/4-3-3 and the 5-3-2. The latter worked a couple of times but looked a mess more often than not. The former stopped working a year ago.
He's had no fresh ideas. He's still failed to bring in a suitable creative midfielder. We were all set to pay 8 million for Cleverley in August. Could we not have found a decent attacking mid for 8 million elsewhere? He promised attacking football but has mostly delivered dour negativity and the sort of anti-football that even McLeish would turn his nose up at.

He's in his third season now. The excuses don't hold water anymore. He's had a budget. Not big, but not peanuts by any stretch either. There's been no progression at all.

A very good analysis Supertom.

[WestleyArmsAV]

Still has not had a run of games with Delph, Vlaar, Benteke, Kozak, Senderos, Nzog all available.

[frankmosswasmyuncle]

I think the Newcastle/Pardew comparison with Villa/Lambert is all wrong.

Generally, over the last few years Newcastle have been better than us. They tend to have a run of a few games where they are shite, their fans then get all demonstrative, call for Pardew's head, get labelled as 'passionate' Geordies, the team finds their feet again and they go back to being a half decent team and Pardew carries on.

Generally, over the last few years, the Villa have been shite. We have the odd run of a game where we are better than shite. The fans have been incredibly patient, but when there is the slightest dissent (a bit of booing at the end of a game) then they are labelled as the most most 'fickle' fans in the history of the game.
Eventually, another good run of a draw away comes along, the manager is praised by the media for getting the team back on track, before we go back to being shite again.

We must be doing something wrong?
         

I wasn't really comparing us to Newcastle long-term, just making the point that going on a good run can change the mood/attitude considerably. Exactly as you say andy, it's just that our good runs seem to be incredibly brief before the hope and expectancy of something better fizzles out.

The extended comparison you make between the clubs/managers is a interesting one and captures the basic idea that both clubs are consistently underperforming...but we're doing a better (worse?) job of it than they are!

And I couldn't agree more: we are definitely doing something "wrong"!
UTV!

[andyh]

Sorry.....I wasn't saying you were wrong with the Newcastle comparison  Frank(MWMU) -  I meant the general circumstances at the 2 clubs were completely different, which you have clearly pointed out.
 
   

[Meanwood Villa]

Still has not had a run of games with Delph, Vlaar, Benteke, Kozak, Senderos, Nzog all available.

Injuries are part of football. Putting out even a basically competent football team with the players available is the minimum requirement for a manager and he has consistently failed to do this.

Do you really think everything will be magically better if all those players are in the first team together? Because a fair few of them have played considerable roles in our terrible performances of the last 3 years. Is there some secret formula that only kicks in when they're all fit?

[Mister E]

talkshite were at it again last night heaping blame on Lerner and doing the hagiography bit on Lambert. Really irritating. The guy leads an inexplicably charmed life with the media and at this rate, this thread has got another four years to run. At least.

The amount of media interest in Lambert and Villa is a bit of a sideshow: the fact is that there is relatively little interest in Villa, and that's because we're not news: we are performing absolutely as expected (i.e. shite), the manager is relatively uninteresting, the owner refuses to meet with the journos and the fans are a bunch of whingeing Brummies.

So Lambert gets away with his shiteness.

And, we are now doing what we have been doing for the last 3 seasons so there's no news there either.

Until we do something discernibly different Lambert will continue to get an easy ride in the media.

[Dave]

Even as cheap as most of his signings are, there's only 2-3 we could actually sell on for a profit at this point.

I know that this is an argument that has been had before, but I'm pretty sure we would make a pretty easy profit on Guzan, Benteke, Westwood, Lowton and Bacuna. That's not to say that they've all been brilliant, but just the fact that they are young players regularly playing in the Premier League means that we would turn a profit on the million we spent on each of first two and the £700,000 that Bacuna cost.

Even with just six months left I reckon we'd get more than £3m for Vlaar. And if we put Senderos up for sale, I think we'd get more than nothing.

This doesn't vindicate him or mean that these transfers are all great - but that doesn't mean we would be selling them at a loss.

[Dr Butler]

Still has not had a run of games with Delph, Vlaar, Benteke, Kozak, Senderos, Nzog all available.

agreed, it would be quite interesting to see how we would do with a run of 7/8 games with them all fit.

UTV
The Doc

[LTA]

talkshite were at it again last night heaping blame on Lerner and doing the hagiography bit on Lambert. Really irritating. The guy leads an inexplicably charmed life with the media and at this rate, this thread has got another four years to run. At least.

Ultimately, the press don't like Lerner because he never speaks to them. They loved Ellis because he'd happily talk to them for hours.

[supertom]

Even as cheap as most of his signings are, there's only 2-3 we could actually sell on for a profit at this point.

I know that this is an argument that has been had before, but I'm pretty sure we would make a pretty easy profit on Guzan, Benteke, Westwood, Lowton and Bacuna. That's not to say that they've all been brilliant, but just the fact that they are young players regularly playing in the Premier League means that we would turn a profit on the million we spent on each of first two and the £700,000 that Bacuna cost.

Even with just six months left I reckon we'd get more than £3m for Vlaar. And if we put Senderos up for sale, I think we'd get more than nothing.

This doesn't vindicate him or mean that these transfers are all great - but that doesn't mean we would be selling them at a loss.

It depends which fees we believe utlimately. We probably could on Westwood. Guzan of course and Benteke. It seems Delph and Vlaar will go for little or nothing.
Lowton cost somewhere between 1-2 million according to sources, and he's done nothing to suggest we'd have the offers to do more than break even. Same goes for Bacuna.
But this is a symptom of not playing. Had we sold Bacuna in the summer for example, we'd have doubled, tripled what we paid perhaps. He's not playing and I honestly think if we listed him he'd end up going the KEA route. Back to the Dutch league, perhaps his old club and get around the 1 mill mark we paid for him.

[dave.woodhall]

talkshite were at it again last night heaping blame on Lerner and doing the hagiography bit on Lambert. Really irritating. The guy leads an inexplicably charmed life with the media and at this rate, this thread has got another four years to run. At least.

Ultimately, the press don't like Lerner because he never speaks to them. They loved Ellis because he'd happily talk to them for hours.

Ellis was also very good at making sure managers, rather than him, got the blame. 

[Dave]

It depends which fees we believe utlimately. We probably could on Westwood. Guzan of course and Benteke. It seems Delph and Vlaar will go for little or nothing.
Lowton cost somewhere between 1-2 million according to sources, and he's done nothing to suggest we'd have the offers to do more than break even. Same goes for Bacuna.
But this is a symptom of not playing. Had we sold Bacuna in the summer for example, we'd have doubled, tripled what we paid perhaps. He's not playing and I honestly think if we listed him he'd end up going the KEA route. Back to the Dutch league, perhaps his old club and get around the 1 mill mark we paid for him.

Bacuna was a million euros - it was in his former club's accounts. So around £700-800,000 at the time.

Lambert and Lowton's brother both said that we paid a million for him, so I don't see why we would believe any other figures.

And I agree that if they were playing the figures would be higher, but a million or two here or there is what Championship clubs routinely pay for players - and just because those players aren't (quite) good enough for where we want to be at the moment doesn't suddently make them worthless.

[supertom]

It depends which fees we believe utlimately. We probably could on Westwood. Guzan of course and Benteke. It seems Delph and Vlaar will go for little or nothing.
Lowton cost somewhere between 1-2 million according to sources, and he's done nothing to suggest we'd have the offers to do more than break even. Same goes for Bacuna.
But this is a symptom of not playing. Had we sold Bacuna in the summer for example, we'd have doubled, tripled what we paid perhaps. He's not playing and I honestly think if we listed him he'd end up going the KEA route. Back to the Dutch league, perhaps his old club and get around the 1 mill mark we paid for him.

Bacuna was a million euros - it was in his former club's accounts. So around £700-800,000 at the time.

Lambert and Lowton's brother both said that we paid a million for him, so I don't see why we would believe any other figures.

And I agree that if they were playing the figures would be higher, but a million or two here or there is what Championship clubs routinely pay for players - and just because those players aren't (quite) good enough for where we want to be at the moment doesn't suddently make them worthless.

A problem with Lambert though is, perhaps if we sold Bacuna or Lowton in january, yes we'd get reasonable fees for them. But I can easily see him leaving it a bit, keeping them on board and deciding in the summer or the following jan (if god forbid he's still here) that they're not needed. We very rarely seem to sell players at the right time now.

Just in regards to Bacuna, I want to see him back in the side at the moment and given a go in more attacking positions. He's quick but he also offers an option from direct freekicks, and we need all the help we can get in scoring.