The Paul Lambert thread - poll reset after our capitulation to Hull

[paul_e]

Where we are now something has to change.

It can't be the squad, we can't wait until the window and we probably can't afford to make another 3-4 signings, I'm also not sure who he could get to make this work.

It can't be entirely on the coaches given we've made a number of coaching changes over the last 2 summers and nothing has really changed.

That leaves the only viable option being to change the manager (who would probably change the coaching as well but so be it).  I can see what Lambert is trying to achieve, but he's no closer to it now than he was 18months ago, and he's signed a lot of players in that time without addressing the obvious gaps.  On top of that what we thought we'd get (have had when we've played well) is a team that press high up the pitch and force errors.  We need to work hard and keep the tempo high but a lack of work on fitness and accuracy in training means the style that we play effectively is unsustainable.  As Lambert can't work out how to change that, either by rotating his squad and keeping them all fit and eager or by improving training his time should be up.

Paulie has said a few times that we're a team that's less than the sum of it's parts and I completely agree, the tactical discussion before the game seems to be to tell the defence and midfield to defend and the attackers to go win the game, there never seems to be the consideration of who we're playing and how to exploit them and create space for our forwards.  Dunne had a pathetically easy game last night because we never got Gabby to sit right in front of him and try to use his pace to make things uncomfortable, that's fucking stupid, that should've been the first thing we discussed in training.

[PaulWinch again]

Just heard him on R5. Apparently he's not concerned about the lack of goal as we have players who can score them (although he failed to acknowledge they haven't done so in the last 5 games). He thinks it's more important to defend well (although again he failed to acknowledge that our defence has conceded 13 in those 5 games). So that's OK then.

Idiotic, you don't sacrifice attack for defence or vice versa. A team should be capable of doing both aspects of the game. The fact he's not concerned that was haven't scored in 5 games should be a sackable offence on its won.

[DrGonzo]

  It normally takes until the new year for me to become too disheartened to watch football, well done chaps, expectations well and truly exceeded.

[Comrade Blitz]

To hear PL speak after a match, you'd think he genuinely believes that he was not responsible for anything that happened on the pitch.

[DB]

Pulis would be short term...keep us up. Long term, Moyes.

[andyh]

Where we are now something has to change.

It can't be the squad, we can't wait until the window and we probably can't afford to make another 3-4 signings, I'm also not sure who he could get to make this work.

It can't be entirely on the coaches given we've made a number of coaching changes over the last 2 summers and nothing has really changed.

That leaves the only viable option being to change the manager (who would probably change the coaching as well but so be it).  I can see what Lambert is trying to achieve, but he's no closer to it now than he was 18months ago, and he's signed a lot of players in that time without addressing the obvious gaps.  On top of that what we thought we'd get (have had when we've played well) is a team that press high up the pitch and force errors.  We need to work hard and keep the tempo high but a lack of work on fitness and accuracy in training means the style that we play effectively is unsustainable.  As Lambert can't work out how to change that, either by rotating his squad and keeping them all fit and eager or by improving training his time should be up.

Paulie has said a few times that we're a team that's less than the sum of it's parts and I completely agree, the tactical discussion before the game seems to be to tell the defence and midfield to defend and the attackers to go win the game, there never seems to be the consideration of who we're playing and how to exploit them and create space for our forwards.  Dunne had a pathetically easy game last night because we never got Gabby to sit right in front of him and try to use his pace to make things uncomfortable, that's fucking stupid, that should've been the first thing we discussed in training.

I pretty much agree with all of this.
I have often thought we are a completely 'reactionary team'.
What I mean is that we seem to approach every game in the same way, turning up and reacting to what the opposition does and hoping for the best, rather than having our own plans to dominate/influence/control the game AND THEN having the ability to change the game plan if things aren't working or players are having an off day.

As many have said on here, during games, there is never a 'Plan B' and most games its a struggle to see 'Plan A'.   

   

[PaulWinch again]

When you strip everything back Paul Lambert has essentially become a less well funded and less succesful O'Neill. He doesn't know how to rotate his squad and his only tactic is to counter attack. The only differences are that he hasn't had as much money to spend and he doesn't appear to motivate anyone.

[pauliewalnuts]

I think there is an argument to be made that he has had to work under tighter financial circumstances than most managers, there's no getting away from that.

However, the problem is that the team he sends out week after week manages to look like less than the sum of the parts - does anyone think that what we saw last night was anything like the best that team could have done?

At certain points the last two and a bit seasons, we have seen what the team can do - and there is no point listing them here, as we all know which matches those are.

I have two problems with that. One is the obvious one, that we don't get to see them showing that anything like as frequently as we should do. The other is that I am now pretty convinced that, by and large, those improved showings are as much despite Lambert as they are because of him.

It's hard to watch matches like last night where it was so obvious that what we were doing wasn't working, and that he needed to change something, only for him to not do anything until it was too late.

I think football fans can be quite patient with managers if they feel like they know what they are trying to do and are with them. That is why, despite a serious of records which would have got almost any other manager sacked, after his first season the support for him was huge. Last season, though, he lost almost all that support.

Under MON I remember that season when we started with a two nil home defeat to Wigan (at least I think it was 2-0, could have been 3). There was a huge amount of discontent about it, but the salient point then was that it was not just about one match, the first day of the season, it was that people could see pretty clearly that exactly the same weaknesses we'd had for a long time the previous season were still there.

The situation now is similar in that people just don't see any progress where we really need to make it. Is this this season's equivalent of the post Chelsea drubbing slump? It looks like it. It even comes after a decent result as that one did. Is it mandatory for us to have these dreadful spells? Because we seem to keep having them.

It doesn't matter if we go to Liverpool, play excellently, get all three points if we then subsequently lose 5 games in a row and fail to score for eight hours. That sort of performance is never going to get us beyond where we have been marooned for three years now. It isn't enough.

At the same time, people see us dropping to 15th and worry that we are effectively sinking to what has, shamefully, become our usual station in the game. I know we are only however many games into the season, and there is a lot of football to play, and being 15th now isn't the same as being there in May, we all get that.

The problem is that it all looks so utterly familiar. I just don't see how he is ever going to change, he has had a pretty decent period in charge, and yet the same basic failings are still there.

Chris made a good point about who else would we get to work in these conditions, but to be honest, I think so many people are so pissed off with the way things are, that "not being Paul Lambert" is starting to look a pretty decent starting point in a manager.

[Monty]

I think there is an argument to be made that he has had to work under tighter financial circumstances than most managers, there's no getting away from that.

However, the problem is that the team he sends out week after week manages to look like less than the sum of the parts - does anyone think that what we saw last night was anything like the best that team could have done?

At certain points the last two and a bit seasons, we have seen what the team can do - and there is no point listing them here, as we all know which matches those are.

I have two problems with that. One is the obvious one, that we don't get to see them showing that anything like as frequently as we should do. The other is that I am now pretty convinced that, by and large, those improved showings are as much despite Lambert as they are because of him.

It's hard to watch matches like last night where it was so obvious that what we were doing wasn't working, and that he needed to change something, only for him to not do anything until it was too late.

I think football fans can be quite patient with managers if they feel like they know what they are trying to do and are with them. That is why, despite a serious of records which would have got almost any other manager sacked, after his first season the support for him was huge. Last season, though, he lost almost all that support.

Under MON I remember that season when we started with a two nil home defeat to Wigan (at least I think it was 2-0, could have been 3). There was a huge amount of discontent about it, but the salient point then was that it was not just about one match, the first day of the season, it was that people could see pretty clearly that exactly the same weaknesses we'd had for a long time the previous season were still there.

The situation now is similar in that people just don't see any progress where we really need to make it. Is this this season's equivalent of the post Chelsea drubbing slump? It looks like it. It even comes after a decent result as that one did. Is it mandatory for us to have these dreadful spells? Because we seem to keep having them.

It doesn't matter if we go to Liverpool, play excellently, get all three points if we then subsequently lose 5 games in a row and fail to score for eight hours. That sort of performance is never going to get us beyond where we have been marooned for three years now. It isn't enough.

At the same time, people see us dropping to 15th and worry that we are effectively sinking to what has, shamefully, become our usual station in the game. I know we are only however many games into the season, and there is a lot of football to play, and being 15th now isn't the same as being there in May, we all get that.

The problem is that it all looks so utterly familiar. I just don't see how he is ever going to change, he has had a pretty decent period in charge, and yet the same basic failings are still there.

Chris made a good point about who else would we get to work in these conditions, but to be honest, I think so many people are so pissed off with the way things are, that "not being Paul Lambert" is starting to look a pretty decent starting point in a manager.

Paulie speaks for me.

[paul_e]

When you strip everything back Paul Lambert has essentially become a less well funded and less succesful O'Neill. He doesn't know how to rotate his squad and his only tactic is to counter attack. The only differences are that he hasn't had as much money to spend and he doesn't appear to motivate anyone.

I think you'll find those last 2 are tied together, Mon's motivational expertise seems, in hindsight, to have been mostly about offering big wages and big bonuses.

I called Lambert Mon-lite when we were linked to him and I've never really changed my opinion.  Given I never had a massive issue with how we played under mon (it worked for 3 years but the last season was 1 too many) I've been willing to give Lambert time to try to sort things and get us to the point of having a solid, competitive squad sitting in the top half of the table before we started looking for some to build on that foundation.  The issue is he isn't capable of getting us that foundation, given where we were when he took over I'd have accepted a couple of years to get to a point of being tough to break down and capable of hurting teams at the other end if they don't show us some respect.  At the start of this season it looked like he might have figured it out but the toothless displays since the liverpool game have shown that teams really don't need to have any worry about us hurting them, just double up on our fullbacks and we're fucked.  Once you realise that you can start overloading down our flanks safe in the knowledge that we won't really threaten so long as you keep a steady 3 at the back it becomes a matter of when not if and patience will bring you goals eventually.

[ChicagoLion]

It looked like he went to a 4-1 3-1-1 with gabby just behind Benteke after starting 4-3-3
This has pretty much been the Lambert way, you can argue how the midfield gets deployed but we play with no wingers and 1 up front.
It has been abundantly clear that this formation which often goes to 4-5-1 just does not suit the players he is deploying.
Gabby and Weimen are off the shoulder strikers but both are being expected to join up play and run from deep.
We have  central midfield players Richardson, Cleverly Sanchez Westwood all taking up the same positions, none run off the ball or get into the penalty box. So we have no runners, no movement and everybody staying in positions that are easy to mark and we fail to play to the one obvious opportunity and that is to have Gabby or Weiman trying to run behind the defence and push them back. And it is the same every bloody week.

[paul_e]

absolutely, we have probably the best target man in the league right now and have made almost no attempt to get players around him. When things have gone well has been when Weimann and/or Gabby have got close to Benteke but that's become so rare.  I'm not a huge fan of 442 but I think we need to look at playing some variant of that for the time being because the 433 only works when our forwards are all full of confidence and finding everything easy.

[Damo70]

I don't want to be presumptuous and strip Paulie's post into one fact but to me he is saying somebody else could do better with this squad. Which, again being presumptuous I think we would all agree with. I rang Talksport last night and it was the first time I have ever called in to a phone in show (which tells you everything about how pissed off I was). They set me up against a Villa fan who was defending Lambert and just wanted to talk about MON and wages. I said it on air and I will say it now, he has been a joke for most of his time at Villa and I would sack him today and give Tony Pulis the job. He actually had Palace playing half decent football last season. In fact he can play hoof ball for all I care. I am just fed up of the last few years walking out of the North stand and seeing opposition fans laughing at us and actually feeling guilty of inflicting this misery on my son. When I was his age we were champions of Europe.

[LTA]

I notice Lambertout is trending on twitter. However, he seems almost bullet proof and - short of being caught in bed with the chairmans daughter - he appears unsackable

[phantom limb]

I notice Lambertout is trending on twitter. However, he seems almost bullet proof and - short of being caught in bed with the chairmans daughter - he appears unsackable

I don't think he's necessarily unsackable, from the team's body language last night it seems there's little belief and he was unable to influence them. When that happens it's over. To keep him on just delays the inevitable, i.e. us losing a lot more games and continuing to play like a bag of shit.