The Paul Lambert thread - poll reset after our capitulation to Hull

[pauliewalnuts]

i think we need to:

- relax the spending restrictions
- appoint a manager who will change the playing direction (ie Moyes is a good manager but wouldn't suit this requirement)
- source decent players from all over Europe - nb "decent"
- purchase five or six players who are significantly better than what we have now

I'm saying appoint a manager based on the notion that Lambert is going, which - rightly or wrongly - looks the case at the moment, he seems to be a dead man walking.

[Louzie0]

TSM , yes. (Reply to Chris Smith, a couple of posts above)

Looking at the long term manager before him, I don't know that Gerard Houllier had that in mind.

However, if you are saying that the manager was operating this season at the parameters set by the owner, fine. Except that there are examples of clubs in this Premier league season which had given up and were re-ignited by a change in manager and I don't think (for example) that Sunderland's or Stoke's or QPR's players are that superior. 

Villa had the advantage of a continuing manager and a squad who had been recruited and trained by him, this season, as distinct from the last. I know there were ridiculous injuries to key players and maybe that is what PL would say made the difference.

However, what are players doing in the squad if they can't play at the required level?
That's down to the manager. And his backer.

I don't think QPR, punching very much above there weight in the transfer market due to rich backers, or Stoke, where Pulis had created a strong framework to work from, are good comparators to our situation. Similarly, the three teams to be relegated all changed their manager this season, so again of itself it is no guarantee of anything.

i really don't know where you are going with this. I will try to explain my thinking.

 The lack of backers; well, QPR's  didn't wake up till it was almost too late but then appointed a really good manager. Stoke's.  Stoke, in a fix, a lot earlier, appointed Mark Hughes. Results for them both, well done.

I did not expect Randy to fire and re hire, this season. My point was, that he kept PL and expected him to work with what he had and buy the extra. He did.

My main point is, I don't think that our lads are worse than the other clubs' players. So what did PL and the other coaches do with them?  They were all over the place for most of this season. If PL knew he had limited resources, why not make the most out of who he had?

I don't think he did.
And that's without looking at the bomb squad. I just think that this season has seen PL wanting as a manager, but I still think he is a nice guy.

[Villa in Denmark]

For me, as ever, there's more than one side to the story.  Unfortunately the one side is painfully thin.

In his favour.
He's managed to rebuild the squad totally with comparatively little money for the number of players brought in.
Just to integrate that many players over 4 windows is a serious challenge.  To do it mostly with players with little or no experience at anything approaching this level makes it an even bigger challenge.
The wages issue will have further restricted the market for potential recruits.

The negative.
The whole bomb squad approach. 

Yes most of the players ostracised in this way were probably players the majority of us wanted to see gone, with the exception of Given and possibly Bent, but to manage the situation in that way beggars belief.  To end up paying serious wages to players who then weren't allowed to contribute is ridiculous. 
It is money thrown away at time when the wages budget is supposed to be the critical item in our financial problems, and instantly devalues the players as assets as it's obvious they can be picked up for a song.  I would dearly love to know who chose that philosophy and ask why the hell they thought it was a good idea and the logic behind it.

The unforgivable.
The complete lack of a consistent playing game plan after nearly 2 years. It might not have been pretty but at least you knew what MON and McLeish were trying to achieve.  Even the Houllier season you could see towards the end where he was trying to take the team. At times this season it's looked more like the sort of kick & rush rubbish (without too much rush it has to be said) that was played when I was playing schools football. ( A long time ago).

Even if you stretch to saying that the improved performance on Saturday was the result of ditching Bibs & Cones MKII and getting Sid involved, then the question must be what the fuck had he been doing for the previous 9 months to not address it sooner. If it was something he was trying to get sorted but was hindered by Faulkner or HR that's another story.

Over and above that:
The needless 8-0.  At 3 or 4 down he should have just shut up shop and limited the damage.  Even 5 or 6 would not have been so psychologically damaging, especially for such an inexperienced.
The following 2 games that resulted in 15-0 over 3 games.
The total surrender at Milwall
The headless chicken tactics in the 2nd leg against Bradford.
The completing the golden hatrick of lower league fuck ups against Sheffield Utd.
10 home defeats in a season
All the other negative records he's broken in the last two years.
Repeatedly getting dicked by the other bottom feeders this year.  The very teams we saved our season against last year.  Further, results based, evidence of the way we've regressed this season, over and above the aesthetics of our play.  And yes we can point to the healthy return against the top 4/5 this year, but in it's own way that's just further evidence for the one-dimensional sub MON approach this year.  Against teams that will attack us and leave space we can play a high pressing game and counter effectively.  Anybody that's not looking to dominate us we haven't got a clue and quickly reduce to the hoof.

To break even against that tale of woe and humiliation he'd have to win the FA cup and League cup every year for the next decade whilst evolving us into some sort of 90's Ajax that piss all over the big boys with a budget of about 25% of the rich teams that could the seriously compete for the league and the CL.

And that just isn't realistic.

Sorry Paul, you seem an honest and decent bloke (so was McLeish), but despite the restrictions I can't escape the feeling that even with the resources at your disposal, so many of those negative records and humiliations were avoidable.  With just a slightly improved performance level and a more intelligent approach to some of the situations (Chelsea last year springs to mind as the most obvious) we could have sat comfortably mid table both seasons, certainly this and so many of those negative records would have been avoided.
I think in the end, despite all the talk of massive club etc. you're yet another manager that has totally underestimated the job, both in terms of the size of club and what's involved in trying to realise the potential.

[pauliewalnuts]

re Lambert being a nice guy. I agree, in fact, I'd say it makes me extra sad that he has failed so spectacularly this season.

I really, really, really wanted it to work out for him. He always says the right thing, which hasn't always been the case (DOL, Houllier), and he genuinely seems proud to have the job.

I don't give a shit for that whole "hurr hurr, he mumbles"

honestly, who gives a fuck if he does?

was it a problem for Ferguson, who was the biggest mumbler the game has seen?

It really annoys me when I see stuff like that. As if there aren't already enough valid reasons to criticise him without starting to twat on about the fact he's Scottish and he doesn't speak as you'd like him to.

[rob_bridge]

I wanted him in and now want him out. His record is unacceptable. The season end bounce from last season disappeared soon into the the new one and it appears he was asleep at the wheel whilst his 2 leftenants ran amok. Sorry that is a disgrace.

Oh and I would be equally astonished if between then Lerner and Faulkner are able to pick someone who can do a half decent job based on the fact we should/may/will be looking for the 7th person to manage 1st team affairs in less than 4 years.

Several more years of drift await and ongoing relegation battles.

[Villa in Denmark]

Well said Paulie.

I've just noticed that whilst typing my "essay" you and Louize managed to cover everything I was trying to say (yet again !)

[not3bad]

The stark unvarnished truth told by the tables is that Lambert is as bad a manager as McLeish.   Even if you dismiss the numbers, I have seen over half of all the games under their stewardship and it has felt every bit as piss poor for the last two seasons as it was in the two previous ones.

Yes, and the club told us that what McLeish achieved wasn't good enough for Aston Villa. Maybe they've reduced their ambition since making that pronouncement. I would think McLeish must be shaking his head at why he was vilified and sacked and Lambert is praised to the hilt by Lerner. I was always adamant that the hatred for McLeish (and many will still only call him TSM) was nothing to do with his previous job. The fact that 40% of people want him to keep his job after very similar performance makes me think I was wrong.

Or maybe now they have a clearer vision that changing the manager but not the owners would be akin to rearranging the deck chairs on the Titanic.

[Louzie0]

Well said Paulie.

I've just noticed that whilst typing my "essay" you and Louize managed to cover everything I was trying to say (yet again !)

No way everything! 

[LTA]

I honestly think Lambert knows more than he's letting on with Lerner's intentions.  The fact that he didn't appear on the lap of appreciation on Saturday said a lot IMO.

Likely he's been told "Look Paul, the club maybe in new hands in a few weeks, so its possible you will be looking for a job in the Summer".

[Chris Smith]

TSM , yes. (Reply to Chris Smith, a couple of posts above)

Looking at the long term manager before him, I don't know that Gerard Houllier had that in mind.

However, if you are saying that the manager was operating this season at the parameters set by the owner, fine. Except that there are examples of clubs in this Premier league season which had given up and were re-ignited by a change in manager and I don't think (for example) that Sunderland's or Stoke's or QPR's players are that superior. 

Villa had the advantage of a continuing manager and a squad who had been recruited and trained by him, this season, as distinct from the last. I know there were ridiculous injuries to key players and maybe that is what PL would say made the difference.

However, what are players doing in the squad if they can't play at the required level?
That's down to the manager. And his backer.

I don't think QPR, punching very much above there weight in the transfer market due to rich backers, or Stoke, where Pulis had created a strong framework to work from, are good comparators to our situation. Similarly, the three teams to be relegated all changed their manager this season, so again of itself it is no guarantee of anything.

i really don't know where you are going with this. I will try to explain my thinking.

 The lack of backers; well, QPR's  didn't wake up till it was almost too late but then appointed a really good manager. Stoke's.  Stoke, in a fix, a lot earlier, appointed Mark Hughes. Results for them both, well done.

I did not expect Randy to fire and re hire, this season. My point was, that he kept PL and expected him to work with what he had and buy the extra. He did.

My main point is, I don't think that our lads are worse than the other clubs' players. So what did PL and the other coaches do with them?  They were all over the place for most of this season. If PL knew he had limited resources, why not make the most out of who he had?

I don't think he did.
And that's without looking at the bomb squad. I just think that this season has seen PL wanting as a manager, but I still think he is a nice guy.

I think that we have a small, inexperienced in PL terms squad, with a list of injuries to significant players that has hindered our progress. I think that those injuries had not happened then we would probably be half a dozen points or more better off and not having this debate. I think a major reason those absences have caused us such difficulty is that the financial restrictions in place have left us without the depth to deal with them. Yes, another manager 'might' have done better, similarly he 'might' have done much worse.

If the policy changes this summer then who is to say that which ever flavour of the month appointment everyone rallies behind will do any better than the flavour of the month appointment from 2 years ago?

[Villa in Denmark]

I honestly think Lambert knows more than he's letting on with Lerner's intentions.  The fact that he didn't appear on the lap of appreciation on Saturday said a lot IMO.

Likely he's been told "Look Paul, the club maybe in new hands in a few weeks, so its possible you will be looking for a job in the Summer".

Like he didn't want to risk starting a shit storm whilst the players were going round with young kids for example.

If he really was off, I would have said that would have increased the chances of him coming out, as despite everything, I believe he genuinely means it when he says how good the supports been and how much it means to him and the players.  It would have made more sense to come out to bid farewell than stay in the dressing room.

[Louzie0]

TSM , yes. (Reply to Chris Smith, a couple of posts above)

Looking at the long term manager before him, I don't know that Gerard Houllier had that in mind.

However, if you are saying that the manager was operating this season at the parameters set by the owner, fine. Except that there are examples of clubs in this Premier league season which had given up and were re-ignited by a change in manager and I don't think (for example) that Sunderland's or Stoke's or QPR's players are that superior. 

Villa had the advantage of a continuing manager and a squad who had been recruited and trained by him, this season, as distinct from the last. I know there were ridiculous injuries to key players and maybe that is what PL would say made the difference.

However, what are players doing in the squad if they can't play at the required level?
That's down to the manager. And his backer.

I don't think QPR, punching very much above there weight in the transfer market due to rich backers, or Stoke, where Pulis had created a strong framework to work from, are good comparators to our situation. Similarly, the three teams to be relegated all changed their manager this season, so again of itself it is no guarantee of anything.

i really don't know where you are going with this. I will try to explain my thinking.

 The lack of backers; well, QPR's  didn't wake up till it was almost too late but then appointed a really good manager. Stoke's.  Stoke, in a fix, a lot earlier, appointed Mark Hughes. Results for them both, well done.

I did not expect Randy to fire and re hire, this season. My point was, that he kept PL and expected him to work with what he had and buy the extra. He did.

My main point is, I don't think that our lads are worse than the other clubs' players. So what did PL and the other coaches do with them?  They were all over the place for most of this season. If PL knew he had limited resources, why not make the most out of who he had?

I don't think he did.
And that's without looking at the bomb squad. I just think that this season has seen PL wanting as a manager, but I still think he is a nice guy.

I think that we have a small, inexperienced in PL terms squad, with a list of injuries to significant players that has hindered our progress. I think that those injuries had not happened then we would probably be half a dozen points or more better off and not having this debate. I think a major reason those absences have caused us such difficulty is that the financial restrictions in place have left us without the depth to deal with them. Yes, another manager 'might' have done better, similarly he 'might' have done much worse.

If the policy changes this summer then who is to say that which ever flavour of the month appointment everyone rallies behind will do any better than the flavour of the month appointment from 2 years ago?

If the policy changes this summer then we won't know, I agree with you.

I take the point about the injuries to key players under PL. However, I don't think he made the best use of players he had left to him to use.

 I would cite really, really late substitutions, for example. Far too late to make any impact. Let alone the strange regression in ability noted by posters on here in several players we were celebrating last season and earlier, in this season.

I would also cite the difference in the attitude, set up and performance of the team this season when playing Arsenal and Chelsea, say, and when facing rather less terrifying opposition.

I think that there are clear indicators of how the team might be better next season, regardless of who is in charge of the squad on match day.

[ciggiesnbeer]

To break even against that tale of woe and humiliation he'd have to win the FA cup and League cup every year for the next decade whilst evolving us into some sort of 90's Ajax that piss all over the big boys with a budget of about 25% of the rich teams that could the seriously compete for the league and the CL.

[eamonn]

To break even against that tale of woe and humiliation he'd have to win the FA cup and League cup every year for the next decade whilst evolving us into some sort of 90's Ajax that piss all over the big boys with a budget of about 25% of the rich teams that could the seriously compete for the league and the CL.

Genuine coffeespitter.

And VillaInDenmark, your essay was erudite, educational and entertaining. Id expect nothing less from someone who breathes the same Copenhagen air as Sarah Lund and that cutie newsreader off Borgen.
Eurovision semifinals are on there at the mo, I see. Maybe Lambo would be better served trying to get one of the plucky Balkans to the finals. I would quite like to see him belt out a version of Johnny Logan's winner "What's Another Year?".

[Mister E]

... I think that there are clear indicators of how the team might be better next season, regardless of who is in charge of the squad on match day.

I agree with this; I think Lambert's squad-forming has been okay. The challenge has - IMO - been similar to that which we had with MON: poor coaching, indifferent tactics, I'll-defined playing style and the absence of a plan B.
All issues which I didn't expect us to be facing when he joined us, since I saw these as his strengths, based on what we'd seen of him at Norwich.