The Paul Lambert thread - poll reset after our capitulation to Hull

[brian green]

You and I must be referring to different Baker mistakes Ads.   It happened exactly as I described it.  If it was the same incident rather than have you call me a liar perhaps you were watching on television and I did not get the fine detail from my seat in the Holte Lower.

[pauliewalnuts]

I wouldn't be entirely adverse to Lambert getting some of next season to prove he can improve us sufficiently. That is to say, i am tending towards getting shot in the summer, but I can see the arguments of letting him have at least the early part of next term.

Where I draw the line is him getting another season, full stop - ie regardless of what goes on. If we found ourselves not improved sufficiently (points AND qualitatively) by November or December, then I'd like to see them bin him rather than waste another whole year.

There are two issues with this, though.

One is that it will be he who spends any money that is available over the summer, so replacing him means a new manager with someone else's players. The other is that it would mean looking for a new manager three or four months into the season, which is far from ideal, rather than at the start of the summer.

I know it is obvious, but it comes down to how much faith we have in him. I understand why they appointed him, I was glad when they did, I was happy for him to stay on despite a pretty awful season last year - mostly because I could see evidence beyond results that he was improving us.

This year, though, I can't really see any real sign of improvement. We've got almost the same weaknesses, the same problem areas, the same awful style of play. In fact, the style of play has been significantly worse than last year - we are one of the worst sides in the top flight to watch.

The question comes down to whether you think he can improve us sufficiently (and bearing in mind, he'll have had two seasons already), or whether maybe you think that the main obstacle for us is the manager. At least, the main obstacle which can be changed - anyone blaming Lerner will have to bear in mind, you can not magic up a wealthy buyer for the club.

[supertom]

My feeling is that I'd rather get a new manager in the close season, as opposed to mid-way through a season. A new guy needs a pre-season under his belt ideally.
I don't want Lambert to have another whole season, so my preference is to hand him his P45 after the Spurs game.

[SW9-VILLA]

Not sure we have much to gain by binning him off now. I'm usually of a more sunny disposition but even I am getting wound up with some of the dross being served up this season. Even more infuriating is that when he gets the team playing they look really good.

[Chris Smith]

The converse of that, Paulie, is that if we replace him it is then somebody else who has to work with players that he might not necessarily want and we are starting the whole process again with all that entails in terms of players feeling disgruntled because they are not getting a look in.

That is why I say the pragmatic thing to do is to see what happens, not just with any new signings but those from this season who have spent most of it injured or acclimatising. If it isn't working I think it will be clear to both sides by Christmas and a change should be made. Hopefully it doesn't come to that and Villa start winning some games.

[Clampy]

The converse of that, Paulie, is that if we replace him it is then somebody else who has to work with players that he might not necessarily want and we are starting the whole process again with all that entails in terms of players feeling disgruntled because they are not getting a look in.

That's been my main thought for keeping him. What we needed after McLeish was a bit of continuity and for a manager to have time. With time though we also needed to see improvement. If we stay up (which I think we will), I think the injuries we've suffered will play a part in the decision to give him another go next season. There is also the argument that despite losing Kozak and Okore, we should be a lot better off than we are.

[NeilH]

I am really torn on the whole thing. From a personal point of view, I am extremely disappointed to see this experiment starting to fall flat on its ar**. I genuinely bought into the notion of young hungry players and a team we could all see growing and believe in once more. It was such a refreshing change from the overpaid, uninterested journeyman dross dating back to MoN.
It’s been quite a hard pill to swallow to see that in amongst a few astute buys, the majority of the dwindling yearly funds have been squandered on players that simply don’t cut it. Add into this mix, the fact that Lambert as coach has been a crushing disaster, with his bewildering tactics and positive results that seem to come in spite of him rather than because of him.

This whole thing leaves me wondering what the best option now is to do. If we cut our losses in the summer, the new coach joins a team hopelessly short on quality and with a board who seem intent on continuing down the path of austerity. What hope would a new coach have given these circumstances and we’d still be languishing in and around the bottom six? Alternatively we stick with Lambert in the hope that in amongst some of the most embarrassing results the club has ever had, there has been enough shoots of hope to justify a last chance of getting it right. Of course the second option will inevitably lead to a further fall in season ticket and match-day ticket sales that would only be reversed by some signs of recovery.

Ultimately in my opinion it boils down to Lerner and Faulkner and whether they have any interest left in trying to make our football club a place worth going to, or if like our idiot neighbours they will just leave us hopelessly drifting on until something inevitably cataclysmic occurs.

[Irish villain]

Has anybody read this?

http://avillafan.com/site/12146/another-turbulent-week-at-aston-villa/

[Boz]

I wouldn't be entirely adverse to Lambert getting some of next season to prove he can improve us sufficiently. That is to say, i am tending towards getting shot in the summer, but I can see the arguments of letting him have at least the early part of next term.

Where I draw the line is him getting another season, full stop - ie regardless of what goes on. If we found ourselves not improved sufficiently (points AND qualitatively) by November or December, then I'd like to see them bin him rather than waste another whole year.

There are two issues with this, though.

One is that it will be he who spends any money that is available over the summer, so replacing him means a new manager with someone else's players. The other is that it would mean looking for a new manager three or four months into the season, which is far from ideal, rather than at the start of the summer.

I know it is obvious, but it comes down to how much faith we have in him. I understand why they appointed him, I was glad when they did, I was happy for him to stay on despite a pretty awful season last year - mostly because I could see evidence beyond results that he was improving us.

This year, though, I can't really see any real sign of improvement. We've got almost the same weaknesses, the same problem areas, the same awful style of play. In fact, the style of play has been significantly worse than last year - we are one of the worst sides in the top flight to watch.

The question comes down to whether you think he can improve us sufficiently (and bearing in mind, he'll have had two seasons already), or whether maybe you think that the main obstacle for us is the manager. At least, the main obstacle which can be changed - anyone blaming Lerner will have to bear in mind, you can not magic up a wealthy buyer for the club.

The pros and cons are difficult to compare to arrive at a best solution. Giving him part of next season, if things don't improve Villa will end up with another season of hoping at best to finish mid table.

If a new manager can illustrate or have shown previously he believes in playing more attractive football with basis of the current squad, that would be a start, but who would that manager be from those who could be expected to be interested and have some proven experience?

I preferred Martinez last time, but he turned us down and Lambert seemed a reasonable alternative. Whether Martinez would have been any better with the financial constraints applied by Lerner is a mute point, and Lambert has had a reasonable amount to spend, but his philosophy of cheaper players hasn't been successful enough.

I suspect Lambert will still be here at the start of next season unless we end up being  relegated, but hopefully any thoughts of a new contract will be on hold now.

[Damo70]

It would be interesting to see how much a very good last few games changed peoples opinions. I suspect that a very poor run in would just sway those suggesting he be given another season to join the ranks of those wanting him sacked. I do think that with what seems to be very few people totally backing him for another season, many wanting him gone and some in the middle willing to give him a limited amount of time next season, that a poor start under him  would lead to outright revolt against him very early on in the campaign. Or even a good start followed by a bad run. He would be going into a season with next to no good will in the bank. Not a great position for him, the players or anyone connected to the club including the fans.

[pauliewalnuts]

The converse of that, Paulie, is that if we replace him it is then somebody else who has to work with players that he might not necessarily want and we are starting the whole process again with all that entails in terms of players feeling disgruntled because they are not getting a look in.

That's what I was hinting at in the first downside I mentioned. A new manager always (well, almost) means working with someone else's squad, there's no getting away with it. I think the argument about giving Lambert the start of next season and then finding we sack him is that we've had a window and spent money buying players requested by someone who isn't there any more, which is far from ideal.

It makes the "bin him in the summer" versus "let's see how he starts the season" question much trickier.

You could make an argument that he should go in the summer, so the new manager can spend the money. You could also make an argument that you are willing to take the risk of changing manager mid season, or you could suggest giving him the entire season.

Ultimately, though, any of those scenarios comes down to how much faith you have in him.

Not many on here seem to have much left, and I doubt many do in the real world, but it's down to Randy and co to make that call. I've a feeling they'll have more faith - if only because they're going to be the ones who'll have to look for a new manager and write the cheques.

[Witton Warrior]

Has anybody read this?

http://avillafan.com/site/12146/another-turbulent-week-at-aston-villa/

"this is a football club, not a hotel"

In a nutshell, Nail on head, Bang to Rights etc etc...

[Toronto Villa]

Binning a manager half way through the season means something has gone really wrong. It will also mean that we will have allowed Lambert to spend 20-25m on his players who may or may not fit the scheme of the next manager. Also, finding a manager mid season might be more difficult than getting one in during the summer. The new manager in the summer has more time to assess his playing staff and bring in players that will get us off to a faster start. Whether a managerial change happens now or in-season it will cause some level of disruption. For me, if you allow Lambert to remain in his position and buy players that you hope will fix the problems, then you give him the full season to get it right. Firing mid season will be failure on numerous levels and certainly financially.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

The converse of that, Paulie, is that if we replace him it is then somebody else who has to work with players that he might not necessarily want and we are starting the whole process again with all that entails in terms of players feeling disgruntled because they are not getting a look in.

That is why I say the pragmatic thing to do is to see what happens, not just with any new signings but those from this season who have spent most of it injured or acclimatising. If it isn't working I think it will be clear to both sides by Christmas and a change should be made. Hopefully it doesn't come to that and Villa start winning some games.

Sorry Chris, that's not pragmatic, that's lethargic.

Whoever is manager at the start of the new season will want to make changes but whether it's Lambert or a new chap, they'll have to work with the majority of the existing squad as we don't have the funds to replace them. The big difference is a new manager, providing he's the right one, will be more capable of developing the existing squad.

The other major hole in your argument for waiting until Christmas is we would be restricting ourselves to a replacement. Ignoring the fact that Lambert has shown very little to suggest he'd get it right next season, why limit yourself to a few potential managers when during the summer you have a much wider choice. Clubs will do everything to keep there managers midseason as they know how tough it will be to bring in a replacement, especially replacing one that's doing well as I assume we'd be after somebody that's showing signs of success.

Then you have the compensation, assuming Lambert will have signed a new, extended contract. If and when he goes, you can bank on him taking his backroom team with him. Remember the mess with MON?

The only real argument for not replacing Lambert is the possibility that the board are unqualified to find the right man. That will always be a risk but they'll have a better chance in the summer than at Christmas. You also have to assume if we are replacing Lambert, we'll be struggling, making us far less attractive than at the start of the season. Do we really want another Houllier situation?

I can't see the point of another wasted season, we've suffered enough, we should thank Lambert for all he's done and move on. People go on about stability and how we need it as a club. Nothing would be more destabilising that having to find a new manager at the end of the year, paying out millions, recruiting from a very short and probably poor list and hoping the new manager can just step in and rescue us.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

Binning a manager half way through the season means something has gone really wrong. It will also mean that we will have allowed Lambert to spend 20-25m on his players who may or may not fit the scheme of the next manager. Also, finding a manager mid season might be more difficult than getting one in during the summer. The new manager in the summer has more time to assess his playing staff and bring in players that will get us off to a faster start. Whether a managerial change happens now or in-season it will cause some level of disruption. For me, if you allow Lambert to remain in his position and buy players that you hope will fix the problems, then you give him the full season to get it right. Firing mid season will be failure on numerous levels and certainly financially.

Couldn't you have posted that 5 minutes earlier?