The Paul Lambert thread - poll reset after our capitulation to Hull

[passitsideways]

Nothing about Lambert suggests he knows how to inculcate a really competent passing game in a side. It doesn't make him useless, but if you're saying that this kind of football will just inevitably follow under his reign I have to disagree.

What about last season? In each of those relegation six-pointers, which by their nature are going to be highly-competitive games, they controlled the ball very well, with pretty much the same players as now (Bannan or Sylla instead of KEA, Lowton instead of Bacuna). They weren't half-bad at keeping it against Liverpool and Chelsea either - they were in total control of the Chelsea game until Benteke stupidly got himself sent off.

It's just that this season, for some reason, Lambert seems to have told the players, "All right lads, you know all that passing we did last season? Forget that, just sit back and be ready to hit them on the counter."

[pauliewalnuts]

Nothing about Lambert suggests he knows how to inculcate a really competent passing game in a side. It doesn't make him useless, but if you're saying that this kind of football will just inevitably follow under his reign I have to disagree.

What about last season? In each of those relegation six-pointers, which by their nature are going to be highly-competitive games, they controlled the ball very well, with pretty much the same players as now (Bannan or Sylla instead of KEA, Lowton instead of Bacuna). They weren't half-bad at keeping it against Liverpool and Chelsea either - they were in total control of the Chelsea game until Benteke stupidly got himself sent off.

It's just that this season, for some reason, Lambert seems to have told the players, "All right lads, you know all that passing we did last season? Forget that, just sit back and be ready to hit them on the counter."

Not just that, but also the stuff about pressing the opponents when they have the ball. Plenty of it last year. This year, hardly ever, and on the rare occasions we have done it, it has got results.

[Villa in Denmark]

For all some people point at Southampton as a club who've got it right, they look like they're doing it by repeating our mistakes and mortgaging their future on some semblance of success.

Southampton: New board says financial situation 'difficult'

Which for me just underlines how shit modern football is. Unless you've got a ludicrously wealthy sugar daddy propping it up like Man City or Chelsea, as opposed to the likes of us who just have a ridiculously wealthy owner, the only way of getting into the upper echelons is to mortgage your future on getting onto the the gravy train of the maybe champions league.

Man Utd and Liverpool have for so many years had access to better funding than the rest due to fan base etc, throughout my lifetime, so they've always been in a position to attempt to buy success.

Unfortunately the days when a club like us, Forest or Leeds in '91 could build a squad through good scouting and management, that could actually challenge for the title are long since gone.

Even if say Everton snatch 4th place and qualify for the CL proper, they'll do well to get through the group stages and suffer in the league as a result - see Spurs, and if they lose Lukaku and Barry without replacing with similar quality they'll really be up shit street- see Spurs again (losing Bale.)

Could we do better than Lambert's achieving right now.  Yes.  We might lose several games to mid / lower teams over the course of a season as things don't go our way every time is to be expected, but the number of times we've not turned up such as Fulham away, where we as good as handed over the points shouldn't happen.

It wouldn't have taken too much extra this season to have converted a couple of draws into wins or defeats into draws and improved our points total markedly, if not our position in the table.

For me the results are not too far off what I would have expected this year after last year, but the way we've arrived at this points total, with too many
non-performances can't be right.  If we'd lost games like Fulham having given it a go but come up short because we're mid-table and almost by definition inconsistent, that's one thing, to go off like a damp squib with a total non performance is where I worry that he can't take us much further.  Doesn't alter the fact that without spending either a fortune we haven't got or years building a solid base like Spurs and Everton have we'll still hit a glass ceiling somewhere around 5th - 8th.  And if we do progress from their, we run the risk of falling away as soon as enough of our better players get picked off again.

For me Spurs this year is the accumulation of losing players like Bale and Modric, akin to us with Barry, Milner, Young, Petrov^*without really being able to replace that quality as you can't really compete in the market you've just sold into, you have to hope that you manage to find the next rising star again.

^*I know we didn't sell Petrov, but we still lost him from the squad and weren't able to replace with the same quality.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

Missing their main striker for most of the season hasn't helped. Imagine us without Benteke. There'd be nobody to hoof it up to.

They seem to be  a good example of style over substance, keeping possession for 300 passes and ending up on the edge of their own area.

More seriously, it's easy to point to other sides as examples of those that we should emulate but there are far more examples of those that have got it wrong. That have tried to put the roof on before getting the foundations in place.

None of us can know what will happen longer term but it would be perverse to have spent two years trying to stabilise the club to then throw it all out and start again.

There's nothing "perverse" at all, Chris. What's perverse is expecting Lambert to suddenly start getting it right when he continually struggles with the basics. There's next to nothing and I've yet to see or read anything to explain why Lambert is the right man to take us forward. He's done his job to the best of his abilities and we should thank him and wish him all the best in the future, wherever that may be.

Sadly, everything points to Randy Lerner extending Lambert's contract. It will turn out to be a very costly mistake for him but it's his money. As I mentioned earlier, if we are stuck with Lambert, the club need to forget about signing young talent, developing them and selling them on for a profit because it's not going to work with Lambert. It's not his strength. He isn't gifted in coaching or development. We'd be better off buying the same type of players he had at Norwich, players that already have experience and you know what you're getting.

On a positive note, he'll probably get them playing better than the kids he's signed. He also likes to buy and sell in volume every summer, so hopefully he'll have the money to bring in better players. As long as he's our manager, we have no other choice but to play to his strengths and avoid at all costs his coaching and tactical weaknesses.

[pauliewalnuts]

It's worth noting that Spurs are still 6th at the moment, which - by the standards of Spurs historically - is actually at the top end of their achievement.

They lost Bale and Modric, yes, but they also spent the money they raised. Badly, but they spent every penny of the Bale cash, and on expensive players.

We probably do have a glass ceiling of 5th or 6th, that much is true. However, there's a massive gap between where we are now, and 5th or 6th place, so plenty of space to "improve into"

[pauliewalnuts]

Missing their main striker for most of the season hasn't helped. Imagine us without Benteke. There'd be nobody to hoof it up to.

They seem to be  a good example of style over substance, keeping possession for 300 passes and ending up on the edge of their own area.

More seriously, it's easy to point to other sides as examples of those that we should emulate but there are far more examples of those that have got it wrong. That have tried to put the roof on before getting the foundations in place.

None of us can know what will happen longer term but it would be perverse to have spent two years trying to stabilise the club to then throw it all out and start again.

There's nothing "perverse" at all, Chris. What's perverse is expecting Lambert to suddenly start getting it right when he continually struggles with the basics. There's next to nothing and I've yet to see or read anything to explain why Lambert is the right man to take us forward. He's done his job to the best of his abilities and we should thank him and wish him all the best in the future, wherever that may be.

Sadly, everything points to Randy Lerner extending Lambert's contract. It will turn out to be a very costly mistake for him but it's his money. As I mentioned earlier, if we are stuck with Lambert, the club need to forget about signing young talent, developing them and selling them on for a profit because it's not going to work with Lambert. It's not his strength. He isn't gifted in coaching or development. We'd be better off buying the same type of players he had at Norwich, players that already have experience and you know what you're getting.

On a positive note, he'll probably get them playing better than the kids he's signed. He also likes to buy and sell in volume every summer, so hopefully he'll have the money to bring in better players. As long as he's our manager, we have no other choice but to play to his strengths and avoid at all costs his coaching and tactical weaknesses.

It depends what "stabilising the club to then throw it away" actually means.

Stabilising us in the sense of finishing 13th-15th for two years - for example - doesn't strike me as that much of a base to be throwing away. Neither does losing over half of our home games.

It's quite easy to dress settling into an unproductive rut as "stability". Stable it would be, but not the sort of stability anyone wants to watch.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

It depends what "stabilising the club to then throw it away" actually means.

I believe Chris fears a new manager would come in and replace all the players and bring in his own, thus starting from "scratch". It would be a first for any club, nevermind one that is controlling it's wage bill and has an annual transfer kitty of 20m. Any new manager would have to work with the majority of the current squad so I don't understand his fear. Lerner choosing a decent manager is another matter and probably the only logical reason to keep Lambert.

One thing I would love to see but sadly won't get the chance, is to see what a decent manager could do with this squad. As I keep telling you, they're not half as bad as they pretend to be.

[Monty]

Nothing about Lambert suggests he knows how to inculcate a really competent passing game in a side. It doesn't make him useless, but if you're saying that this kind of football will just inevitably follow under his reign I have to disagree.

What about last season? In each of those relegation six-pointers, which by their nature are going to be highly-competitive games, they controlled the ball very well, with pretty much the same players as now (Bannan or Sylla instead of KEA, Lowton instead of Bacuna). They weren't half-bad at keeping it against Liverpool and Chelsea either - they were in total control of the Chelsea game until Benteke stupidly got himself sent off.

It's just that this season, for some reason, Lambert seems to have told the players, "All right lads, you know all that passing we did last season? Forget that, just sit back and be ready to hit them on the counter."

Even that it was the haphazard, slightly mad haring around, which was and is exciting if and when it works, but is too risky to be relied upon. Villa players don't pass the ball decisively - they clearly have no real idea what to do with it when they get it, and take far too many touches while they're looking around for options. They shouldn't have to look, or at least more than glance, they should be trained to know where their teammates are likely to be. Clearly there's nothing like that in place.

[KevinGage]

Largely true, Rudy.

But perhaps Chris means that Lambert has seen something in those players, and should be given every chance to get the most out of them.

 Whereas a new manager -particularly the traditional British type that we invariably go for- is one part football manager and one part politician.   If they have a degree of success, it's down almost entirely to them and the new routines introduced.  If they do badly, or if the team underperforms regularly it's a case of "Well these are the players I inherited, they are not my players,"  and vague references are made to the future.  "Judge me when I've been able to sign the players I want," and so forth.  Even that contains a cop-out, as not many managers can ever truly sign the exact players they want. 

In contrast, a  Head Coach appointed to the most senior football role at a club tends to avoid that type of nonsense.  He is given a squad of players to work with, and that's it. No excuses.  He might have some input in suggesting transfers, but a well run club won't (with a few exceptions) leave long-term decisions like that to a short >medium term employee.

There is certainly a case to make Lambert walk the plank at the end of the season, taking performances over the last two years into account.  Like many, I don't think the club will actually do that,  particularly if we finish roughly where we are now. 

The Neil Lennon situation at Celtic intrigues me though. If he decides to bail, Lambert could look at an easy gig like that as perfect for the CV.  Guaranteed trophies, guaranteed CL football (qualifying stages at least).  Outside of B6, the media would largely be sympathetic to him. "He had his hands tied at Villa, there is only so much they could do with the cutbacks," and so forth. 

What could he realistically achieve with us in his third year, particularly if Benteke is sold?  The potential for damage to his reputation is greater than the prospect of enhancing it, IMO.

[Sexual Ealing]

WHO FUCKING CARES!?

[Sexual Ealing]

Apologies for the last post (I make no apologies for The Last Post). I know I ought to ignore the things that annoy/don't interest me. I think it's because I care a tiny bit.

[Rudy Can't Fail]

Interesting you raise the Celtic job as I believe they did the gentlemanly thing (Petrov factor) and officially approached us for permission to speak to Lambert, thus Randy panicking and throwing a new contract in front of Lambert. There's no other logical explanation, especially considering how we were playing at the time.

I see Lambert's role as that of Turnaround Management, where somebody who into a company, saves them from going under and returns them to solvency. Great job that they do, they're not the type that have the vision to grow the company, that needs a separate set of skills.

[john e]

For all some people point at Southampton as a club who've got it right, they look like they're doing it by repeating our mistakes and mortgaging their future on some semblance of success.

Southampton: New board says financial situation 'difficult'

Which for me just underlines how shit modern football is. Unless you've got a ludicrously wealthy sugar daddy propping it up like Man City or Chelsea, as opposed to the likes of us who just hiave a ridiculously wealthy owner, the only way of getting into the upper echelons is to mortgage your future on getting onto the the gravy train of the maybe champions league.

Man Utd and Liverpool have for so many years had access to better funding than the rest due to fan base etc, throughout my lifetime, so they've always been in a position to attempt to buy success.

Unfortunately the days when a club like us, Forest or Leeds in '91 could build a squad through good scouting and management, that could actually challenge for the title are long since gone.

Even if say Everton snatch 4th place and qualify for the CL proper, they'll do well to get through the group stages and suffer in the league as a result - see Spurs, and if they lose Lukaku and Barry without replacing with similar quality they'll really be up shit street- see Spurs again (losing Bale.)

Could we do better than Lambert's achieving right now.  Yes.  We might lose several games to mid / lower teams over the course of a season as things don't go our way every time is to be expected, but the number of times we've not turned up such as Fulham away, where we as good as handed over the points shouldn't happen.

It wouldn't have taken too much extra this season to have converted a couple of draws into wins or defeats into draws and improved our points total markedly, if not our position in the table.

For me the results are not too far off what I would have expected this year after last year, but the way we've arrived at this points total, with too many
non-performances can't be right.  If we'd lost games like Fulham having given it a go but come up short because we're mid-table and almost by definition inconsistent, that's one thing, to go off like a damp squib with a total non performance is where I worry that he can't take us much further.  Doesn't alter the fact that without spending either a fortune we haven't got or years building a solid base like Spurs and Everton have we'll still hit a glass ceiling somewhere around 5th - 8th.  And if we do progress from their, we run the risk of falling away as soon as enough of our better players get picked off again.

For me Spurs this year is the accumulation of losing players like Bale and Modric, akin to us with Barry, Milner, Young, Petrov^*without really being able to replace that quality as you can't really compete in the market you've just sold into, you have to hope that you manage to find the next rising star again.

^*I know we didn't sell Petrov, but we still lost him from the squad and weren't able to replace with the same quality.

Great post, entirely agree

[olaftab]

Good post ViD. The only light at the end of the tunnel is obviously Evertonand Atletico in Spain and upto a point Liverpool. As for Southampton they will be pillaged this summer wiith Llanana, Shaw and Rodriguez going. That will move the deficit from their books to their team and I expect them to take up their normal place in the bottom 6 next season. That is sad as the next affect will be on their academy.

[Malandro]

I doubt they will sell, rather consolidate.

Selling puts their league status at risk. I think the way we did it was near suicide.