Aston Villa v Manchester United Post-Match Thread

[PeterWithesShin]

Helenius is a strange one, the kind of player we should be signing given his age, fee, wages and record, but then can't even get ahead of Bowery on the bench. Strange things are afoot at the Circle K.

[SamTheMouse]

I see what you're saying, but I still think inviting youngsters to make the step up to top-flight football in a struggling team, as opposed to one that is comfortable or has little to play for, is too much of a Darwinian process. They might deal with it and flourish, but the risk is that they will sink under the pressure and their development will be set back because of it. It's all very well turning out for Notts County in front of a modest crowd, when you're on loan and know that not much is expected of you. It's quite another thing to play for a Premier League side that's already under the cosh, scrapping for every point it can get, in front of 40k irate fans.

People often assume the kids are the answer, much as they do whenever England perform badly, but are they really prepared to accept the defeats that will inevitably ensue?

[supertom]

Helenius is a strange one, the kind of player we should be signing given his age, fee, wages and record, but then can't even get ahead of Bowery on the bench. Strange things are afoot at the Circle K.

I'm all for building for the future certainly. But I think we have to sort out the quality of the first team for the immediate future before signing so many players who may or may not make it in a year or two. I think our signings thus far lean more toward the "maybe in a couple of years" category.
Someone like Luna for example shouldn't be thrown into 40 games a season in the Premiership just yet. Tonev is some way off (though I'm not sure he's got enough in his locker at this level, sorry Stan). Someone like Bacuna I would say, at this immediate time is a squad player. He can fit in over a number of positions but again, you wouldn't want him playing week in, week out just yet.
We need more signings like Vlaar, or even Okore who represents both first 11 standard alongside being a great prospect. We paid more accordingly for that, 4-5 mill? That's a difference I think between spending a bit more or spending say a million for someone playing in the Polish league.

[aj2k77]

The best way for youngsters to learn their trade is being eased in gently with some larger figures showing them the ropes and taking the majority of the strain. Our team is so young and so devoid of leadership, including the manager (his teamtalks must be legendary 0 goals in the first half ).

[Ads]

Do you mean no goals in the first half at home?

[Meanwood Villa]

Do you mean no goals in the first half at home?

Unless you count Rotherham. That is so bad it's ridiculous.

[Fuse]

I see what you're saying, but I still think inviting youngsters to make the step up to top-flight football in a struggling team, as opposed to one that is comfortable or has little to play for, is too much of a Darwinian process. They might deal with it and flourish, but the risk is that they will sink under the pressure and their development will be set back because of it. It's all very well turning out for Notts County in front of a modest crowd, when you're on loan and know that not much is expected of you. It's quite another thing to play for a Premier League side that's already under the cosh, scrapping for every point it can get, in front of 40k irate fans.

People often assume the kids are the answer, much as they do whenever England perform badly, but are they really prepared to accept the defeats that will inevitably ensue?

I dont think anyone argues that youngsters are not the answer. The suggestion was if we are going to use youngsters then use our own rather than spunking money up the wall on the likes of Tonev, Helenius and Bowery who are youngsters from other clubs but no better or more prepared than our own might be.

[aj2k77]

Do you mean no goals in the first half at home?

Yes, at home is a massive problem of the managers making not the fans, luck, the fixture list, injuries etc etc. The team has no pace, no enforcers, no playmakers and no genuine width. The midfield in particular no thought seems to have been made about the purchasing of the players because they're all much of a muchness.

[Concrete John]

We started well (was it 4 shots of target before they scored?), but they had extra quality and were clinical when they got their chances.  And tactially they exposed Luna badly.  This lead to us losing confidence as the game wore on.  Still, you'd expect a bit more fight from them and we saw precious little.

You could mark it up to a learning curve for young players, but when it comes after other poor showings, if not always results, they it does look bad and shows the manager he needs to get a grip of them quickly before we see a collapse in confidence similar to last season.

Albrighton was the best of a bad bunch. 

[Mister E]

... For me two of the better performers of the past two games were Herd and Albrighton. Even when fit they've seemed secondary in Lamberts plans to his own punts, but for me Herd is fairly reliable and industrious, he's not brilliant but I could trust him more than some of the signings. Same goes for Albrighton.
Johnson could offer just as much physical presence as KEA (beatin zero isn't a big ask) and as much, if not more quality on the ball. One things for sure we've got some youngsters, including Jack, who look comfortable with the ball at their feet, whereas some of Lamberts signings don't.

They have to get the chance at some point if they're going to make it. It may as well be now. Grealish and Carruthers have to experience their share of big opposition players in League 1... we're now a club who plays youngsters consistently. That's our ethos. I'd rather we were playing our own more though. We've got Helenius who's probably 1-2 years off from being ready (if ever). At this time I'd say Grealish's experience playing week in/out at County would have him ahead of Helenius, certainly Carruthers would be as he's been in the first team before. But the point is we paid a million for Helenius. Take the combined fee and wages of Tonev and Helenius and we could have got a half decent player who'd be ready for our first 11.
 

You've made some good points here; I really don't get why Herd has been either frozen out or type-cast as a CB. He was one of TSM's most effective midfielders in That Season. And yesterday, Albrighton seemed to demonsrate what we've been missing by not having a wide player in the line-up.
I'd like to see GG, Bacuna, Herd and Albie given more time in the midfield, with Delph and Westie. And why not Daniel Johnson too?!
They all seem a better bet than KEA and Sylla. Herd would certainly provide some steel, always covers well when the full back attacks and he has a reasonable pass-range too.

[aj2k77]

I agree aswell that it's time for a few of the flops to be replaced and as said by others pretty much a bag of cement could replace the likes of El Ahamadi which speaks volumes for the money we've spent, again, that we're even talking about rolling out the youth team again.

[SamTheMouse]

I see what you're saying, but I still think inviting youngsters to make the step up to top-flight football in a struggling team, as opposed to one that is comfortable or has little to play for, is too much of a Darwinian process. They might deal with it and flourish, but the risk is that they will sink under the pressure and their development will be set back because of it. It's all very well turning out for Notts County in front of a modest crowd, when you're on loan and know that not much is expected of you. It's quite another thing to play for a Premier League side that's already under the cosh, scrapping for every point it can get, in front of 40k irate fans.

People often assume the kids are the answer, much as they do whenever England perform badly, but are they really prepared to accept the defeats that will inevitably ensue?

I dont think anyone argues that youngsters are not the answer. The suggestion was if we are going to use youngsters then use our own rather than spunking money up the wall on the likes of Tonev, Helenius and Bowery who are youngsters from other clubs but no better or more prepared than our own might be.

Tonev's 23, Helenius is 22 and so is Bowery. They're young but they're hardly youth players. They've had a good 4 more years of playing pro football than the likes of Grealish. That's a big difference.

[PeterWithesShin]

Carruthers & Johnson should be starting to knock on the squad door as they are both around the 21 yo mark. Grealish though only recently turned 18 so sending him out on loan is the right thing in my opinion.

We really have misused the loan system in the past. Johnson has 5 first team appearances for Yeovil at 21 by my reckoning. At similar ages Helenius, Bacuna, Tonev had played probably 70+ first team games each.

[David_Nab]

Herd as a DM covering would work IMO.He is not the best technician but he puts a shift in and would be a big help to the CB.Yesterday on sky they showed the goals and pointed out how poor the tracking back was from the midfielders , the same issue was their with Luna he was constantly left with 2 players attacking him

Now this is not an excuse for some of the poor defending , obviously both Baker and Luna made poor pass's that led to goals but MF is still an issue.It's no defensive enough or creative enough.

Also I totally disagree with Lamberts stance on experienced players using poor performances from some older players in the past to justify buying inexperience  players is not acceptable to me.No one can tell me that midfield wouldn't benefit from a Parker or a Barry to help them.Look at the defence up until Vlaar (our only experienced CB in age as well as games ) looked decent , since he went off at Soton we have conceded 7 goals.

For the talk of players with potential for the future you need some short term solutions.

[Fuse]

I see what you're saying, but I still think inviting youngsters to make the step up to top-flight football in a struggling team, as opposed to one that is comfortable or has little to play for, is too much of a Darwinian process. They might deal with it and flourish, but the risk is that they will sink under the pressure and their development will be set back because of it. It's all very well turning out for Notts County in front of a modest crowd, when you're on loan and know that not much is expected of you. It's quite another thing to play for a Premier League side that's already under the cosh, scrapping for every point it can get, in front of 40k irate fans.

People often assume the kids are the answer, much as they do whenever England perform badly, but are they really prepared to accept the defeats that will inevitably ensue?

I dont think anyone argues that youngsters are not the answer. The suggestion was if we are going to use youngsters then use our own rather than spunking money up the wall on the likes of Tonev, Helenius and Bowery who are youngsters from other clubs but no better or more prepared than our own might be.

Tonev's 23, Helenius is 22 and so is Bowery. They're young but they're hardly youth players. They've had a good 4 more years of playing pro football than the likes of Grealish. That's a big difference.

I would argue that despite their age and experience they are offering us nothing that we couldnt get from our own youth team - certainly in Bowey and Helenius case who just havent even appeared. Tonev looks woeful too.

I would bet money that Grealish and even Jordan Graham would offer more thna nay of those 3 and they were already here. If Lambery hadnt bought those 3 he could have ahd Barry in our midfield instead of his other woeful signing KEA.

Lambert is pig-headed like MON was and it is costing us money we dont have and holding us back.