At home but where is the comfort?

[richard moore]

My simple minded view is we haven't got very good players.

I'm increasingly inclined to agree with you

[Ad@m]

My simple minded view is we haven't got very good players.

I'm increasingly inclined to agree with you

We've got some very good players (Benteke, Guzan), we've got a lot of average Premier League players, and we've got some poor players.  We've probably got an average-to-below average Premier League team and squad (although I worry a lot at how we'd fair without Benteke!).  We'll probably finish lower mid-table which is slightly better than last year.  Lambert's record so far suggests that given time he'll improve us again next season.

Short of throwing a billion pounds at the squad I don't really see what some fans expect.  Man City have spent over £500m and didn't win the league last year.  Is chucking lots of money at the problem really the answer (and think really hard about the MON years before you answer that!)?

[richard moore]

My simple minded view is we haven't got very good players.

I'm increasingly inclined to agree with you

We've got some very good players (Benteke, Guzan), we've got a lot of average Premier League players, and we've got some poor players.  We've probably got an average-to-below average Premier League team and squad (although I worry a lot at how we'd fair without Benteke!).  We'll probably finish lower mid-table which is slightly better than last year.  Lambert's record so far suggests that given time he'll improve us again next season.

Short of throwing a billion pounds at the squad I don't really see what some fans expect.  Man City have spent over £500m and didn't win the league last year.  Is chucking lots of money at the problem really the answer (and think really hard about the MON years before you answer that!)?

Adam, I think you've said exactly the same thing except in more detail, we haven't got very good players. I have no expectations any more and that's the killer. I used to expect us to finish top 6 minimum (and I'm not talking about the MON era, that is one small speck in my Villa following history and is not my baseline for reference purposes at all), now it's all about whether we can finish closer to 8th than 12th. And that's what it has come to more or less...

[Phil from the upper holte]

On reflection, had Benteke and Weimann finished two of their three chances on Saturday, this thread wouldn't even be up and running. It's a fine line.

It's been coming for a while Des we've been crap at home for a long time

[ktvillan]

It does seem that Lambert doesn't like or want older experienced players or those with a big reputation.  It's a self-imposed limitation that is hampering the team.  We're crying out for a Scott Parker/Gareth Barry/ Kevin Nolan type in the middle of the park, experienced, competent, and, with Parker and Nolan at least, with leadership qualities.  As an interim, short term measure I don't think it would have broken the bank or upset his general philosophy.  These leader types are often big personalities and perhaps Lambert doesn't welcome that type.  It's odd when you think that the most successful manager of the last 25 years had the egos and temperaments of the likes of Keane, Ince, Beckham, Van Nistelrooy and Cantona to deal with, and without their ilk it's unlikely they'd have won as much.     

we had agreed a fee for Dempsey and Vlaar and KEA were both 27 when we bought them. I don't think that stat is entirely true. I think it's a fair statement for this summer though.

Fair points, but we didn't get Dempsey,  KEA is certainly not a leader, and Vlaar doesn't appear to be either.  Plus neither Vlaar nor KEA had PL experience.   Even with those two, the balance is still heavily towards young and inexperienced, and too much so in my opinion.  It's like the opposite of MON who went too far the other way with his 29 year old journeymen policy only partially balanced by signings like Young, Milner and Delph.   It would be nice, and I think more effective,  to get a good blend and balance of both. 

[supertom]

I'm just wondering whether a signing like Arteta might make a big difference. Arsenal are kind of overrun with players at the moment. They've got so many in good form, particularly in midfield that his chances might become increasingly rare. Might be worth a punt and he could be good for us for a year or two. He's at Arsenal so his wages wouldn't be astronomical. A player like that we're crying out for. If not him there's probably a few others similar we might be able to get from Spain or Italy.

[pauliewalnuts]

My simple minded view is we haven't got very good players.

I'm increasingly inclined to agree with you

We've got some very good players (Benteke, Guzan), we've got a lot of average Premier League players, and we've got some poor players.  We've probably got an average-to-below average Premier League team and squad (although I worry a lot at how we'd fair without Benteke!).  We'll probably finish lower mid-table which is slightly better than last year.  Lambert's record so far suggests that given time he'll improve us again next season.

Short of throwing a billion pounds at the squad I don't really see what some fans expect.  Man City have spent over £500m and didn't win the league last year.  Is chucking lots of money at the problem really the answer (and think really hard about the MON years before you answer that!)?

I agree in that if you look at our squad, other than Guzan and Benteke, how many of them would be coveted by other PL sides?

It doesn't have to be about Man City style money, though. I know it is early in the season, for example, but look how Southampton are doing. They've spent a fair bit, but not hugely.

I also do not think it is about spending money purely in terms of figures, it is about how it is spent. The problem with the MON era was not so much that we didn't spend enough - we did - but it was spent badly.

I know, I know, Young, Downing, Milner, good signings, sold for profit, but it wasn't really on the big players that he let us down, it was on the squad performers. We didn't build a strong enough squad, it was lop sided in that there were riches in some areas and next to nothing in others, and that squad that we did build, we didn't use. To make it worse, we then watched a lot of them sit out their huge contracts and walk away for free.

Spending money alone (at least to sub Man City levels) does not guarantee success, but not spending money pretty much guarantees you won't have success.

The summer disappointed me, because we just got in more players of the same level, rather than spend cutely where it was needed. An attacking midfielder, for example. I don't know if that Kiyotake was the answer, but I'd have rather we spent 12m on him than 12m on pretty much any three of the players we did sign.

I think Lambert is capable of improving us, but it has to be done at a reasonable rate. That doesn't mean jumping ten places from one year to the next, but it also doesn't mean finishing one place above the previous season. Fans would have a right to complain about that.

We've bought into the plan, but that is not a free pass for the club to just go on bobbing along around 16th or so. It has to get better than that, and most people will give him that chance, but there is really a very thin dividing line between the "building something long terms, young, hungry players" and becoming like a Stoke or a Wigan, just doing enough to stay in the division.

No club has a divine right to success, but I think Villa fans have a right to expect more than bobbing along.

[Clampy]

I'm just wondering whether a signing like Arteta might make a big difference. Arsenal are kind of overrun with players at the moment. They've got so many in good form, particularly in midfield that his chances might become increasingly rare. Might be worth a punt and he could be good for us for a year or two. He's at Arsenal so his wages wouldn't be astronomical. A player like that we're crying out for. If not him there's probably a few others similar we might be able to get from Spain or Italy.

One person in my head who might be useful for us is Zaha. Moyes has come out and said that he may be moved out on loan in January.

[fredm]

I think most people thought we would finish around the 10th position mark this season after the way we ended playing last year.  I think a lot of those people are now readjusting to a lower placed finish.

[supertom]

I'm just wondering whether a signing like Arteta might make a big difference. Arsenal are kind of overrun with players at the moment. They've got so many in good form, particularly in midfield that his chances might become increasingly rare. Might be worth a punt and he could be good for us for a year or two. He's at Arsenal so his wages wouldn't be astronomical. A player like that we're crying out for. If not him there's probably a few others similar we might be able to get from Spain or Italy.

One person in my head who might be useful for us is Zaha. Moyes has come out and said that he may be moved out on loan in January.

I think he'd be a good option. Sign him on loan and buy a decent central midfielder and our attacking play improves.

[pauliewalnuts]

Slight tangent, but I actually feel sorry for Randy re home form.

If you look at the MON years, three top six finishes, but we were rarely particularly thrilling at home. Take those last three seasons, 57 home games, how many of those were what could be called exciting? I imagine Randy would have much preferred a return on his investment in terms of turning it on at home - and probably getting more bums on seats.

Similarly, that plethora of players in the £5m or so area that his money was spent on, many of them to hardly ever get used. I wonder if he was slightly disappointed that we didn't, instead, sign a significantly more expensive "bums on seats" style player.

For all his money that we spent, even taking into account finishing sixth three times, there wasn't much excitement generated in return.

Even our European "adventures" didn't generate much to get worked up about.

[Clampy]

Slight tangent, but I actually feel sorry for Randy re home form.

For all his money that we spent, even taking into account finishing sixth three times, there wasn't much excitement generated in return.

But Randy has never spent any money apparently.

[supertom]

I think most people thought we would finish around the 10th position mark this season after the way we ended playing last year.  I think a lot of those people are now readjusting to a lower placed finish.

We certainly haven't looked as dangerous in attack as last season. Home or away. We scored 6 goals against Man City and Arsenal with some degree of fortune too. Two penalties against Arsenal at the Emirates is lucky. They were stone wall, but you're still lucky if you get given one, let alone two in one of the top 4 grounds. Had Dowd or someone like him reffed the game, not a fucking chance. As for City, well, I still wonder how we score 3 against them (not that I'm complaining). A free kick like Bacunas, another 9 times out of 10 just rockets over the bar. We won't see a more perfect free kick for us maybe all season. Again we got the benefit of a call for KEA's goal that 9 times out of 10 will have been given to the "bigger" club.

But you take those two games out and things become a little clearer. We're struggling to score goals. We've not scored more than one goal a game in our other matches. Three games on the spin without scoring now too. A degree of misfortune last time out granted, but in the other games we certainly didn't create enough clear cut openings.

Any composure we appeared to have last season from feb-may appears to have gone. Our passing has gone to complete toss too. Largely because the main hub who made everything tick, Westwood has been so poor. He's not been the unruffled figure of composure he was last season. He's also not making himself available for the ball like he did. He's gone hiding a bit. Someone looks forward and there's no option. Last season they would always have that option to give it back to Westwood because he'd always be there. This season, not so. Inevitably if it does go back, it goes right back to Guzan who hoofs it forward. Once in a blue moon we'll get a goal like Weimanns against City, but most times it just gifts the ball back to the opposition.

[pauliewalnuts]

Another thing I have noticed is that, last year, and even this year at Arsenal, when we didn't have the ball, we'd work like fuck to get it back - harrying and closing down the opposition.

For most of this season, though, there doesn't seem to have been anything like enough of that. It is almost as if they've been reading the papers about how dangerous they are on the counter attack and have decided they don't really need to do that any more, they'll just let the opposition keep the ball and do what they want with it.

[supertom]

Another thing I have noticed is that, last year, and even this year at Arsenal, when we didn't have the ball, we'd work like fuck to get it back - harrying and closing down the opposition.

For most of this season, though, there doesn't seem to have been anything like enough of that. It is almost as if they've been reading the papers about how dangerous they are on the counter attack and have decided they don't really need to do that any more, they'll just let the opposition keep the ball and do what they want with it.

It's frustrating. At the same time we do still expend a lot of energy though, without doing much with it. We kind of circle around their players as they pass it around us, without getting close enough. We're not pressing high enough up the pitch either (we tend to do most of our pressing in our own half, and invite pressure). One of Gabby's specialities has always been pressing high up the pitch. A defender thinks they have time, but his pace catches them a bit flat and then they'll often give away a throw in a good position, or sometimes a corner. It gets us some territory and the chance to have an attack. He's not been doing this so much, or chasing what looks like a lost cause but is turned into something.