On-going progress..

[hilts_coolerking]

Let's say that he does spend heavily - along the lines of an inflation-adjusted Darren Bent so maybe £25 million. The player will be looking for another £15 million or so in wages so you've just added £40 million of debt onto the club. That's coming out of the owner's pocket, which leaves the obvious question - how far can you go getting deeper into debt and relying on the goodwill of your club's owner to continually finance progress? It's no good blithely saying "speculate to accumulate". There isn't a single successful club that wouldn't have been in administration long ago if they were anything other than a bank or a football club.

No doubt that's true regarding £25M valued players, which is no doubt why we're not spending that kind of money on individuals (not that we ever have).  But is it equally true of £15M players, £10M players or even £7-8M players?

As regards how far do you go, only Lerner (and possibly Faulkner and Lambert) know the answer to that.  I suppose my questions really are how much is Lerner actually worth, what proportion of that is he prepared to spend on the Villa, and could it be higher?

[paul_e]

You're also missing:

d) Lerner is giving Lambert the money he asks for.

I've said it repeatedly over the last year, where is there any evidence that Lerner won't allow Lambert to spend more on players?  There is the wage bill consideration, and I'm convinced that a target is set for that, but I just don't see that with transfer fees, it seems to be that Lambert won't spend above his valuation of a player more than him operating to a tight budget.

Yep, it's a possibility but that would make Lambert one of the few managers in world football who imposes financial limits on himself, rather than have them imposed by the owner.  And I'd be more persuaded that it is true of Lambert if our requirement for a top class midfielder wasn't so blatant.

but we've been linked with a lot of suitable midfielders over the summer, and all would have come with a big price tag, the club have even confirmed that we asked about some of them.  Kiyotake for example, I guess Lambert had a fee in mind (let's guess at £6m) and FCN quoted £10m so we walked away and Lerner was never asked for the money.  That's almost certainly what happened (the figures are made up though) which is why I think it's pretty unfair to moan about Lerner not making the funds available, the evidence we have is that the money is there but only if Lambert thinks the player is value for it.

I strongly suspect that he had 3-4 midfielders in mind but none of them were available at a price he was happy with and he then didn't have the 'dossiers' for any others so he's left it until Jan when hopefully he'll have a couple more options or one of his original choices will be available.  It all fits with what we know about the way Lambert operates in the market.

[Concrete John]

I don't think Lambert would refuse money from Lerner, but would refuse to spend it on the wrong player.  And by that I mean spending £10m on a £5m player.

Ultimately, that may turn out to be his achilles heel when you view how the market seems to work these days.

[hilts_coolerking]

but we've been linked with a lot of suitable midfielders over the summer, and all would have come with a big price tag, the club have even confirmed that we asked about some of them.  Kiyotake for example, I guess Lambert had a fee in mind (let's guess at £6m) and FCN quoted £10m so we walked away and Lerner was never asked for the money.  That's almost certainly what happened (the figures are made up though) which is why I think it's pretty unfair to moan about Lerner not making the funds available, the evidence we have is that the money is there but only if Lambert thinks the player is value for it.

I strongly suspect that he had 3-4 midfielders in mind but none of them were available at a price he was happy with and he then didn't have the 'dossiers' for any others so he's left it until Jan when hopefully he'll have a couple more options or one of his original choices will be available.  It all fits with what we know about the way Lambert operates in the market.

I don't know.  January is when prices are at their most inflated so if we're anxious to get the best value for money then the summer would have been the time to buy.

Maybe you're right, maybe we did only want to pay (for sake of argument) £6M for a £10M valued player but, in the long run, what effect does not paying the asking price have on the team?  Surely it's better to have paid over the odds if the need is great.  Yes we might have an extra £4M (or whatever the figure is) in the bank but that leads me back to my point about Lerner's protection of his money trumping the requirements of the team.

It makes even less sense when we spent reasonably big on another big striker.

[dave.woodhall]

Let's say that he does spend heavily - along the lines of an inflation-adjusted Darren Bent so maybe £25 million. The player will be looking for another £15 million or so in wages so you've just added £40 million of debt onto the club. That's coming out of the owner's pocket, which leaves the obvious question - how far can you go getting deeper into debt and relying on the goodwill of your club's owner to continually finance progress? It's no good blithely saying "speculate to accumulate". There isn't a single successful club that wouldn't have been in administration long ago if they were anything other than a bank or a football club.

No doubt that's true regarding £25M valued players, which is no doubt why we're not spending that kind of money on individuals (not that we ever have).  But is it equally true of £15M players, £10M players or even £7-8M players?

As regards how far do you go, only Lerner (and possibly Faulkner and Lambert) know the answer to that.  I suppose my questions really are how much is Lerner actually worth, what proportion of that is he prepared to spend on the Villa, and could it be higher?

Given that the figure generally quoted at the time of his arrival was £1.something billion, and his family trust is worth more, that's all you can base your calculations on, which means that his outlay has been something like a quarter of his total wealth. Should we really ask him to spend more, and would the trustees of his fortune allow him to? Plus, it comes back to what i said earlier. It's long-term madness to expect your owner to keep spending money you have no hope of being able to recoup.

[Holte L2]

Never had a problem with what we spent but would have liked a couple of experienced players in the squad instead of all cheap unknowns .

Still think Barry would have been great like Arsenal did with Flamini etc .  Even the Top 4 get experience .  We do need a general type at times .

My main concern is the signings made over the summer. I can't see Helanius, Tonev and Bacuna being good enough for this level. Lambert hasnt addressed last seasons issue.  We all knew he needed a quality centre half (Okore's injury was a massive blow) A leader in midfield was required, along with a creative midfielder -and possibly a left back to challange Bennett.
We've got a group of young players, but they need some experienced players to support them.
We could have easily have addressed this by some cheap additions: Assou-Ekotto and Huddlestone from Spurs, Gareth Barry from Everton and Charlie Austin from Burnely.

[Hoppo]

Only read a few posts. I understand how Lambert operates and up to a point agree but is anyone happy we seem to have a team of journeymen? If we had around half a team of homegrown last night then fine but there was nothing to get excited about.

[hilts_coolerking]

Given that the figure generally quoted at the time of his arrival was £1.something billion, and his family trust is worth more, that's all you can base your calculations on, which means that his outlay has been something like a quarter of his total wealth. Should we really ask him to spend more, and would the trustees of his fortune allow him to? Plus, it comes back to what i said earlier. It's long-term madness to expect your owner to keep spending money you have no hope of being able to recoup.

Eye-watering sums, it's true, even more so when he has jack shit to show for it.  He can't possibly have bought the club with the expectation that he would make money though surely?  He must have known that football clubs, particularly English ones, are a money pit.

Should we ask him to spend more?  As fans, when we see the club struggling and the owner has £750M in the bank then the answer has to be yes doesn't it?  As grateful as I am for the money he has put in my main concern is the giving the team the best possible chance; frankly my worries about whether Lerner has £750M, £650M or £550M in the bank are minimal.  I mean, Christ, talk about having more money than you could possibly ever need.

Bearing those sorts of sums in mind it seems puzzling to be ignoring a pressing requirement like a top class midfielder over £4M (or whatever it may have been).

[dave.woodhall]

Given that the figure generally quoted at the time of his arrival was £1.something billion, and his family trust is worth more, that's all you can base your calculations on, which means that his outlay has been something like a quarter of his total wealth. Should we really ask him to spend more, and would the trustees of his fortune allow him to? Plus, it comes back to what i said earlier. It's long-term madness to expect your owner to keep spending money you have no hope of being able to recoup.

Eye-watering sums, it's true, even more so when he has jack shit to show for it.  He can't possibly have bought the club with the expectation that he would make money though surely?  He must have known that football clubs, particularly English ones, are a money pit.

Should we ask him to spend more?  As fans, when we see the club struggling and the owner has £750M in the bank then the answer has to be yes doesn't it?  As grateful as I am for the money he has put in my main concern is the giving the team the best possible chance; frankly my worries about whether Lerner has £750M, £650M or £550M in the bank are minimal.  I mean, Christ, talk about having more money than you could possibly ever need.

Bearing those sorts of sums in mind it seems puzzling to be ignoring a pressing requirement like a top class midfielder over £4M (or whatever it may have been).

I've a fair idea why he bought the club. What you say about the remainder of his wealth is, and this isn't a dig at you, exactly what Wolves fans said about Jack Hayward when he announced the golden tit had run dry. It's his money, to do with as he likes, and it's ever so easy to casually say that someone should spend £100/200 million/300 million on what is essentially a hobby because he's got plenty left. 

[sirlordbaltimore]

I'd like to be able to add something constructive but I can't.

So, progress my arse!

There's only one way this club is going and it's not up.

We've reached a point in time when even some long standing supporters who've heard it all have bought into the whole 'we have no money' bullshit. Of course we have money!, EVERY club has just had a massive extra windfall and they haven't all been through about 3 seasons of cost cutting extraordinaire either. We've trimmed the wage bill significantly, we've also trimmed the squad in terms of size and quality too, including not replacing the better players with ones even just as equally good.

It says a lot when supporters are talking a few games into a season as being happy just to stay up or float around the lower end of the table yet again. Or happy to get knocked out of a cup we could win because we 'can concentrate on the staying in the league' ... WTF ?

The dumbing down of the supporters expectations by the club and the lapping up of it is quite breathtaking to my mind.

I sense a turning point coming with the home crowd, and its not going to be pretty.

And who can blame them/us ?

[hilts_coolerking]

Given that the figure generally quoted at the time of his arrival was £1.something billion, and his family trust is worth more, that's all you can base your calculations on, which means that his outlay has been something like a quarter of his total wealth. Should we really ask him to spend more, and would the trustees of his fortune allow him to? Plus, it comes back to what i said earlier. It's long-term madness to expect your owner to keep spending money you have no hope of being able to recoup.

Eye-watering sums, it's true, even more so when he has jack shit to show for it.  He can't possibly have bought the club with the expectation that he would make money though surely?  He must have known that football clubs, particularly English ones, are a money pit.

Should we ask him to spend more?  As fans, when we see the club struggling and the owner has £750M in the bank then the answer has to be yes doesn't it?  As grateful as I am for the money he has put in my main concern is the giving the team the best possible chance; frankly my worries about whether Lerner has £750M, £650M or £550M in the bank are minimal.  I mean, Christ, talk about having more money than you could possibly ever need.

Bearing those sorts of sums in mind it seems puzzling to be ignoring a pressing requirement like a top class midfielder over £4M (or whatever it may have been).

I've a fair idea why he bought the club. What you say about the remainder of his wealth is, and this isn't a dig at you, exactly what Wolves fans said about Jack Hayward when he announced the golden tit had run dry. It's his money, to do with as he likes, and it's ever so easy to casually say that someone should spend £100/200 million/300 million on what is essentially a hobby because he's got plenty left.

The reason they said, and the reason I say it, is because it's a valid point.  If a guy has £750M in the bank - which is by anyone's standard more money than you could possibly ever need - then not paying over the odds for a player (say £4-5M), to the detriment of the team, seems excessively cautious.  It's less than 1% of his wealth.

It brings me back to one of my original points: that Lerner could spend more if he wanted to, but he doesn't want to.  Now if he was only worth a tenth of what he is then it would be easier to understand.  But £750M??  If that's his attitude - and, as you say, it's his money and he can do what he likes with it - would we not be better off with someone who would almost certainly be less wealthy but had a greater degree of football knowledge?

[supertom]

I have a concern that this summer most of our signings have come from overseas. Last year the majority of our younger signings were domestic players. The likes of Helenius, Bacuna etc may well take longer to settle than Lowton, Westwood etc. Again, we've clearly looked at signing more home based players, but I would imagine got priced out. Lamberts first choice left back did appear to be Cresswell at Ipswich. We were linked to him before settling on Bennett. We were linked with him again before settling on Luna. But obviously signing English talent proves costly, especially after you have a degree of success.

I would say it's harder for someone like Helenius coming from Denmark, than it is for someone like Lowton. He'd played 100 odd English league games. The physicality and pace of the game remains similar down the leagues, without as much technical quality.

When you come off the back of a poor season, and you have to bed in 7 new players, you'd ideally like most of them to A- be good enough and B- hit the ground running. I suspect some of our players may struggle. Kozak will probably be okay. Bacuna has bundles of energy and the Dutch league isn't too shabby. I worry about Tonev and Helenius. It may take more time for them to find their feet (if they're good enough).

[Ads]

I said a few pages ago that its my belief there will be three or four young players come in next summer, who are further down the development track than the players we’ve purchased to build the squad thus far. I am talking about players costing between £7-10 million who will come in and strengthen the spine of the first XI, financed on the back of Benteke's sale. I think this explains why Lambert is willing to wait on the number 10 he wants.

I think the players we have this year will be enough for us to go from 16th to 12-8th and then next summer, make us more competitive to push getting back towards the top 7/6 again.

I think anything beyond that is unattainable without a serious windfall or stumbling on players of Benteke’s ilk all in one go. 

[dave.woodhall]

The reason they said, and the reason I say it, is because it's a valid point.  If a guy has £750M in the bank - which is by anyone's standard more money than you could possibly ever need - then not paying over the odds for a player (say £4-5M), to the detriment of the team, seems excessively cautious.  It's less than 1% of his wealth.

It brings me back to one of my original points: that Lerner could spend more if he wanted to, but he doesn't want to.  Now if he was only worth a tenth of what he is then it would be easier to understand.  But £750M??  If that's his attitude - and, as you say, it's his money and he can do what he likes with it - would we not be better off with someone who would almost certainly be less wealthy but had a greater degree of football knowledge?

And you can guarantee that within seconds the cry would be to sell to someone who can compete with the oligarchs. I repeat what I keep saying, and nobody seems to have addressed - you can't keep expecting your owner to hand over money like an indulgent parent 'lending' a skint child a few quid until payday.

[Ads]

The reason they said, and the reason I say it, is because it's a valid point.  If a guy has £750M in the bank - which is by anyone's standard more money than you could possibly ever need - then not paying over the odds for a player (say £4-5M), to the detriment of the team, seems excessively cautious.  It's less than 1% of his wealth.

It brings me back to one of my original points: that Lerner could spend more if he wanted to, but he doesn't want to.  Now if he was only worth a tenth of what he is then it would be easier to understand.  But £750M??  If that's his attitude - and, as you say, it's his money and he can do what he likes with it - would we not be better off with someone who would almost certainly be less wealthy but had a greater degree of football knowledge?

And you can guarantee that within seconds the cry would be to sell to someone who can compete with the oligarchs. I repeat what I keep saying, and nobody seems to have addressed - you can't keep expecting your owner to hand over money like an indulgent parent 'lending' a skint child a few quid until payday.

Especially when he has already gone down that route and as glib as this may sound, achieve nothing more than O'Leary did.