Sad, sad, sad

[Villadroid]

I suppose I tend to think that when people claim that they are victims of an addiction they are avoiding personal responsibility, a conclusion which is usually supported by their their lies, craftiness and manipulation.

When they give it up for a good while and then choose to go back to the booze, I have little doubt that they are just being self-indulgent and not responding to a physical need.

I don't believe people are avoiding personal responsibility, but then my judgement is clouded by knowing one  alcoholic who despite numerous medical interventions, drank himself to death. How anyone would choose to do that is beyond me, ergo I believe personal choice didn't enter the equation.

It takes years of regular high-levels of alcoholic intake to show signs of physical damage or become an addict.

It would be these years of dedicated drinking for the buzz which I would call the indulgence.

William S. Burroughs made the same claim about heroin, that it takes time to make a junky.

I think it is in this phase where personal choice is possible.

Although it is counter-intuitive to claim people are deliberately self-destructive observing how people behave does suggest it might be the case.

Freud was trying to unravel this when he came up with his theory of the "death drive".

[Monty]

Again, the name-dropping, of Burroughs and Sigmund Fraud. Burroughs may say that, but most pharmacological research says something very very different about heroin. Why believe Burroughs over the scientists? For perspective, he also believed that everything that happens is because of the number 23. As for Freud, the death drive is one of the cases - as with a great deal of his output - of his literary instincts getting the better of his attempts at science. All a bit unfalsifiable, like.

[russon]

It takes years of regular high-levels of alcoholic intake to show signs of physical damage or become an addict.

I can't work out whether you're on the wind up or being serious, can you confirm? I'll know if I should be getting annoyed or not then

[Ger Regan]

I believe it was the Beatles who said "I am the eggman, they are the eggmen
I am the walrus, goo goo goo joob", which I'm sure you'll agree is as relevant today as it was all those years ago.

[Dave Cooper please]

Villadroid, I'm coming very close to saying something to you which would probably get me a ban.
Please, please stop spouting pseudo-intellectual bollocks about a subject you obviously know fuck-all about. You are now furiously back-tracking and trying to baffle us with bullshit becuae once again you are trying to come over as a worldy-wise intellectual who knows everything about everything.
For once in your sad little life please knowwhen to shut up because you have crossed the line between being annoying to being downright insulting.

And yes this is personal.

[Ger Regan]

It takes years of regular high-levels of alcoholic intake to show signs of physical damage or become an addict.

I can't work out whether you're on the wind up or being serious, can you confirm? I'll know if I should be getting annoyed or not then

If his opinions were worth anything then I'd say you should be annoyed. Luckily his posting history proves that this is not the case.

[Chico Hamilton III]

I'm reminded of Sir Clement Freud's 1970s assertion that "Henry likes his Minced Morsels"

[Villadroid]

It takes years of regular high-levels of alcoholic intake to show signs of physical damage or become an addict.

I can't work out whether you're on the wind up or being serious, can you confirm? I'll know if I should be getting annoyed or not then

I made my original argument which you disagreed with and the discussion followed from there.

I explained that I was not on about addicts but about annoying coping-boozers.

You thought my use of the word boozer instead of alcoholic was not useful because it reduced the seriousness of the problem.

I thought you had a point.

I thought the discussion was heading towards a reasonable resolution.

Sorry to have got you involved.

Apologies to those who took offence.

[Ger Regan]

Edited due to getting into the realms of abuse. I'm just going to ignore him from now on.

[pauliewalnuts]

I suppose I tend to think that when people claim that they are victims of an addiction they are avoiding personal responsibility, a conclusion which is usually supported by their their lies, craftiness and manipulation.

Wow.

That's about as high-handed as it gets. It even has your trademark ridiculous 2+2=5 conclusion thrown in, too.

[danlanza]

Very bold statement by Villadroid that. Very bold.
I have posted about my Fathers alcoholism earlier on this thread. I do not find Villadroids statement offensive, just very ill informed.
If i was you Villadroid, and this is just a suggestion, find out where the nearest AA meeting is to where you live and go along one night, afternoon.
I think you may just change your views on this subject, once you really understand it, or a little bit about it.
Once you see the lost lives, the upset, the broken families and also the people who have become recovering alcoholics and have turned their lives around then i think i would listen to your comments. At the moment you obviously have no idea about this subject. Sorry, but you don't.

[TheSandman]

Absolutely Dan.

I also wonder why he sought to bring this into a discussion about a club legend whose alcoholism is linked to some very real demons. Does Paul McGrath rank as a 'genuine addict' or an 'annoying coping boozer' on the Villadroid scale? If the first, he should have saved the point for a more relevant thread and shouldn't have been surprised it got people's backs up. If the second, I might lack Coops' and Ger Regan's restraint in my response. I'd recommend he read Paul's autobiography to get an idea of his issues. He might not think it is high brow enough for him, but if he reads it it might just give him a new layer of understanding on the situation.

[danlanza]

Absolutely Dan.

I also wonder why he sought to bring this into a discussion about a club legend whose alcoholism is linked to some very real demons. Does Paul McGrath rank as a 'genuine addict' or an 'annoying coping boozer' on the Villadroid scale? If the first, he should have saved the point for a more relevant thread and shouldn't have been surprised it got people's backs up. If the second, I might lack Coops' and Ger Regan's restraint in my response. I'd recommend he read Paul's autobiography to get an idea of his issues. He might not think it is high brow enough for him, but if he reads it it might just give him a new layer of understanding on the situation.

Agree 100% mate. I don't want to have a go at Villadroid, i find most of his posts very interesting, if a bit confusing at times, difference in intellect.
This is a subject that, unless you have been through it yourself, or with a close friend or relative you should not make silly comments about. Just my view, but i will stick by it for the rest of my life.

[Villadroid]

Very bold statement by Villadroid that. Very bold.
I have posted about my Fathers alcoholism earlier on this thread. I do not find Villadroids statement offensive, just very ill informed.
If i was you Villadroid, and this is just a suggestion, find out where the nearest AA meeting is to where you live and go along one night, afternoon.
I think you may just change your views on this subject, once you really understand it, or a little bit about it.
Once you see the lost lives, the upset, the broken families and also the people who have become recovering alcoholics and have turned their lives around then i think i would listen to your comments. At the moment you obviously have no idea about this subject. Sorry, but you don't.

I accept my admonishment.

It is almost certain that I am prejudiced.

Years ago my neighbour had a boyfriend with a drink problem and he was always stealing her money for drink and all the rest of the stuff.

She would kick him out and he'd go stay with his mother for a few weeks and then he'd use their young daughter to manipulate my neighbour and she would let him come back.

He even went to AA a few times but didn't keep it up.

He would be okay for a couple of months and then it would start over again.

I thought he was selfish and manipulative and found it impossible to give him any sympathy.

Anyway that's me done on the subject.

Thanks for your comment.

[danlanza]

Very bold statement by Villadroid that. Very bold.
I have posted about my Fathers alcoholism earlier on this thread. I do not find Villadroids statement offensive, just very ill informed.
If i was you Villadroid, and this is just a suggestion, find out where the nearest AA meeting is to where you live and go along one night, afternoon.
I think you may just change your views on this subject, once you really understand it, or a little bit about it.
Once you see the lost lives, the upset, the broken families and also the people who have become recovering alcoholics and have turned their lives around then i think i would listen to your comments. At the moment you obviously have no idea about this subject. Sorry, but you don't.

I accept my admonishment.

It is almost certain that I am prejudiced.

Years ago my neighbour had a boyfriend with a drink problem and he was always stealing her money for drink and all the rest of the stuff.

She would kick him out and he'd go stay with his mother for a few weeks and then he'd use their young daughter to manipulate my neighbour and she would let him come back.

He even went to AA a few times but didn't keep it up.

He would be okay for a couple of months and then it would start over again.

I thought he was selfish and manipulative and found it impossible to give him any sympathy.

Anyway that's me done on the subject.

Thanks for your comment.

No probs mate. It is a difficult subject to talk about and i do not disagree with all of your prior comment at all. But to understand any addiction, you have to have been through it or very close to it.