Just when you think that things couldn't get any worse....

[KevinGage]

It was widely accepted that we underperformed last year, due to the conservative nature of the manager. 

We could (and probably should) have been well clear of any notions of relegation long before we lost Petrov at the tail end of the campaign. And -as unpopular as this might be- was he really a key influence for us by that stage? 

There were post many match threads advocating we needed better than Stan as far back as 2010/11, that he tired quickly, was slowing down (not that he was ever particularly quick) and was a yard or two off the pace.

Regardless, if his absence left such a huge void, the current manager had the funds to address that.  He failed to do so. 

[Risso]

I think that must be where a lot of this belief that he's done a bad job has come from, because the facts just don't back this up.

Aye.

If you ignore the league table, our goals against, our goal difference and the various maulings we've had this campaign, you're probably right.

It's more a case of you ignoring the fact we got 38 points last season, lost our captain and best midfielder after 29 games, then didn't win a game after that. So yeah you're probably right that squad he inherited were outstanding weren't they?

No, you're right, the squad was pretty poor.  So what sort of idiot looks at it, and thinks "aye, that squad that just avoided relegation, I know what will do the trick, a load of League 1 and cheap foreign signings".  Brilliant.

[Dave]

Westwood has looked OK in patches, but how many assists does he have?

More than Mikel Arteta and Frank Lampard combined. Statistics aren't useless, but they rarely tell the whole story.

And really, Guzan as a Lambert signing?  He'd been offered a new deal at the end of the season.

Of course he's a Lambert signing. He left the club and could have signed for any club that was interested. Equally, Lambert could have chosen whichever keeper he wanted and chose to sign Guzan.

[Dave]

And -as unpopular as this might be- was he really a key influence for us by that stage?

I'd very much say so. Wasn't he scoring more goals for us than any other time in his Villa career? Some players get better in their later years and Petrov's form when he has to stop playing was as good as it ever was.

And I think it's safe to say that what we really need right now is an experienced player who will do exactly the job that Petrov's done for the last two years. I'd say he's been a massive loss.

[Jockey Randall]

Westwood has 3 assists, which is 1 more than our hero Mark Noble. I also remember seeing stats a website that said that with Westwood we gain a hell of a lot more points than without him. It basically suggested he was our most vital player. It was similar sort of figures to the ones presented by Sky when they examined the influence of Yacob/Mulumbu for Albion.

[Jockey Randall]

It was widely accepted that we underperformed last year, due to the conservative nature of the manager. 

We could (and probably should) have been well clear of any notions of relegation long before we lost Petrov at the tail end of the campaign. And -as unpopular as this might be- was he really a key influence for us by that stage? 

There were post many match threads advocating we needed better than Stan as far back as 2010/11, that he tired quickly, was slowing down (not that he was ever particularly quick) and was a yard or two off the pace.

Regardless, if his absence left such a huge void, the current manager had the funds to address that.  He failed to do so. 

We underperformed in 11-12 because we lost Young/Downing and host of other talented players that saw us plummet to 16th. Not because TSM was a completely useless tool. You suggest the influence of Petrov wasn't that big of a deal. That facts of the run in suggest otherwise. I think I'd prefer to side with those over your opinion. You also say the manager had the funds to address the squad? Are you saying you know how much room he had to deal with on the wage bill? The way that Hutton (who came out and said he was rejected for financial reasons) and Warnock were dealt with certainly seems to suggests there was very little room for manoeuvre on this front. Or are you basing this view solely on transfer fees?

[not3bad]

And -as unpopular as this might be- was he really a key influence for us by that stage?

I'd very much say so. Wasn't he scoring more goals for us than any other time in his Villa career? Some players get better in their later years and Petrov's form when he has to stop playing was as good as it ever was.

And I think it's safe to say that what we really need right now is an experienced player who will do exactly the job that Petrov's done for the last two years. I'd say he's been a massive loss.

Agreed.  To question Petrov's influence is daft and blind in my opinion.  We were all over the place when he wasn't on the field and found cohesion when he was on it.

[Jockey Randall]

I think that must be where a lot of this belief that he's done a bad job has come from, because the facts just don't back this up.

Aye.

If you ignore the league table, our goals against, our goal difference and the various maulings we've had this campaign, you're probably right.

It's more a case of you ignoring the fact we got 38 points last season, lost our captain and best midfielder after 29 games, then didn't win a game after that. So yeah you're probably right that squad he inherited were outstanding weren't they?

No, you're right, the squad was pretty poor.  So what sort of idiot looks at it, and thinks "aye, that squad that just avoided relegation, I know what will do the trick, a load of League 1 and cheap foreign signings".  Brilliant.

I think it was more a case of "Well if I do the same shit they've previously been doing we'll end up in a bigger financial mess with a new bunch of overpaid average players. Why don't I make sure I'm in it for the long haul, suggest that we buy young and cheap, then build a side who will be comfortably mid table in 4/5 years time and give us a solid base to sell/buy players to work our way slowly up the league?" Brilliant!

[Risso]

Westwood has 3 assists, which is 1 more than our hero Mark Noble. I also remember seeing stats a website that said that with Westwood we gain a hell of a lot more points than without him. It basically suggested he was our most vital player. It was similar sort of figures to the ones presented by Sky when they examined the influence of Yacob/Mulumbu for Albion.

A very quick check shows that Westwood has made 18 appearances in the league, with 18 points.  That means in the 8 games he hasn't appeared in, we've got 6 points.  Two points different then.  A hell of a lot more, indeed.  And if indeed you want to compare him to Noble, then Noble's stats show he's scored 4 goals to Westwood's 0, and makes nearly twice as many passes and tackles a game.

[Risso]

I think it was more a case of "Well if I do the same shit they've previously been doing we'll end up in a bigger financial mess with a new bunch of overpaid average players. Why don't I make sure I'm in it for the long haul, suggest that we buy young and cheap, then build a side who will be comfortably mid table in 4/5 years time and give us a solid base to sell/buy players to work our way slowly up the league?" Brilliant!

To quote that evil twat Sarah Palin, "How's that hopey changey thing workin' out for ya?"  The above would have been a good plan if it didn't involved a good chance of getting relegated.  Then the players like Benteke who would provide that basis in 4/5 years time would instead be playing Champions League football with the likes of Spurs, while we're still playing in front of 25k crowds in the Championship.

[KevinGage]

You suggest the influence of Petrov wasn't that big of a deal. That facts of the run in suggest otherwise. I think I'd prefer to side with those over your opinion.

I tend to think our woeful second half to the campaign had more to do with the absence of Bent and the goal threat he provided rather than a lack of square balls from Petrov, but each to his own.

Funny how you'd cite that example as 'fact' (which many other people might class it as merely coincidence) yet abstract concepts such as league tables, results and so forth can be overlooked to suit.  A very arbitrary system, if you don't mind me saying (that's my opinion, of course, not a fact.  So I don't expect you to side with that either,     )

[Jockey Randall]

Westwood has 3 assists, which is 1 more than our hero Mark Noble. I also remember seeing stats a website that said that with Westwood we gain a hell of a lot more points than without him. It basically suggested he was our most vital player. It was similar sort of figures to the ones presented by Sky when they examined the influence of Yacob/Mulumbu for Albion.

A very quick check shows that Westwood has made 18 appearances in the league, with 18 points.  That means in the 8 games he hasn't appeared in, we've got 6 points.  Two points different then.  A hell of a lot more, indeed.  And if indeed you want to compare him to Noble, then Noble's stats show he's scored 4 goals to Westwood's 0, and makes nearly twice as many passes and tackles a game.

That is indeed very impressive stats regarding Westwood. You play those figures out over over the course of a season and you're looking at one player making a difference of nearly 10 points more! Certainly shows his worth to the side. Also when you consider a lot of players will actually chalk up a negative team impact figure here, that sort of difference certainly shows how valuable he is.

All of Noble's goals were from penalties I presume? Westwood actually has a higher pass success rate than Noble, nearly 2% more in fact. Just because Noble makes 5 million 5 yard passes out to the wingers in preparation for the big hoof into the mixer, doesn't mean he's better at finding a team mate than Westwood is. I don't want to knock him though, especially to what appears to be only other person on here that rates him!

[Jockey Randall]

I think it was more a case of "Well if I do the same shit they've previously been doing we'll end up in a bigger financial mess with a new bunch of overpaid average players. Why don't I make sure I'm in it for the long haul, suggest that we buy young and cheap, then build a side who will be comfortably mid table in 4/5 years time and give us a solid base to sell/buy players to work our way slowly up the league?" Brilliant!

To quote that evil twat Sarah Palin, "How's that hopey changey thing workin' out for ya?"  The above would have been a good plan if it didn't involved a good chance of getting relegated.  Then the players like Benteke who would provide that basis in 4/5 years time would instead be playing Champions League football with the likes of Spurs, while we're still playing in front of 25k crowds in the Championship.

So what would your plan have been with the wage structure and transfer budget we had at the start of the summer?

[Greg N'Ash]

Jesus 26 pages about something that's never gonna happen.....you can tell its been 10 days since a game

[Jockey Randall]

You suggest the influence of Petrov wasn't that big of a deal. That facts of the run in suggest otherwise. I think I'd prefer to side with those over your opinion.

I tend to think our woeful second half to the campaign had more to do with the absence of Bent and the goal threat he provided rather than a lack of square balls from Petrov, but each to his own.

Funny how you'd cite that example as 'fact' (which many other people might class it as merely coincidence) yet abstract concepts such as league tables, results and so forth can be overlooked to suit.  A very arbitrary system, if you don't mind me saying (that's my opinion, of course, not a fact.  So I don't expect you to side with that either,     )

I think you've overlooked the fact that I said the facts of the run in suggested otherwise. I did not state it was a fact. All I said was I'd prefer to side with the fact that we didn't win a game after he stopped playing as a better argument for gauging his value to the side, rather than your view that his legs were gone. Jeez this thread is starting to sound like one of those PPI claim adverts - "FACT!!"