Lambert in or out? Poll reset with majority 'in', 7th May

[claretandbeer]

I back Lambert too, I didn't say I didn't its just sometimes in a football match you have to do the 'ugly' things to win... slow a game down by enticing a foul, standing over the ball at a free kick, or even kicking the ball into the corner.
I'm a big fan and admirer of Lambert's reliance on youth, but it's experienced players that will normally do those 'ugly' things and the difference in the Premier League is such fine margins, these are the things that matter a lot in the end.
I've seen Villa managers like Tommy Doc, Graham Turner etc., rely totally on youth before and as I said it works for a short time then you need to augment with quality experience...a balance.

Nothing to disagree with but,unfortunately,MON with an incredible lack of control from the executives put the club in a dire financial position.Subsequent transfer dealings by Houllier and TSM  worsened our league position and the board's response has been to go from feast to famine. Villa's season has again been a tightrope walk but we now seem to be heading upwards. Lambert has also bought experience but from Holland rather than in the expensive Prem League.
I also remember managers like Crowe who rarely ventured outside experienced players from other reserve teams and after  4 years left us 14th in Div 2.

[dave.woodhall]

I back Lambert too, I didn't say I didn't its just sometimes in a football match you have to do the 'ugly' things to win... slow a game down by enticing a foul, standing over the ball at a free kick, or even kicking the ball into the corner.
I'm a big fan and admirer of Lambert's reliance on youth, but it's experienced players that will normally do those 'ugly' things and the difference in the Premier League is such fine margins, these are the things that matter a lot in the end.
I've seen Villa managers like Tommy Doc, Graham Turner etc., rely totally on youth before and as I said it works for a short time then you need to augment with quality experience...a balance.

Nothing to disagree with but,unfortunately,MON with an incredible lack of control from the executives put the club in a dire financial position.Subsequent transfer dealings by Houllier and TSM  worsened our league position and the board's response has been to go from feast to famine. Villa's season has again been a tightrope walk but we now seem to be heading upwards. Lambert has also bought experience but from Holland rather than in the expensive Prem League.
I also remember managers like Crowe who rarely ventured outside experienced players from other reserve teams and after  4 years left us 14th in Div 2.

Surely to God you're not criticising Vic Crowe?

[claretandbeer]

I don't know about God,but Crowe,sadly,being an ex-Villa player and seemingly good bloke,was not a good manager.
His best 2 buys ,Nicholl and Graydon,came from outside Div 1.Most were experienced players from reserve teams.Lochhead,Cumbes,Ross ,Robson,Beard,Vowden,,Hughes,Gibson,Evans and possibly Hockey. Some of these were ok but a fair bit of money spent with little sell on value,redolent of MON.
A manager who couldn't stop us going into Div 3 and couldn't finish above Halifax ,let alone come second.And in his last season went 12 games without a win in Div 2.
In his favour,a League Cup Final.(being Div 3 champs is not a honour for the Villa) and success in the US with Portland .There is a great article about this in an issue of 'When Saturday Comes'

[dave shelley]

On your point of Ian Ross, in my opinion; although a reserve player in the best team in the country at that time.  Ross was the catalyst for what has gone on since.  Ian Ross was a utility player for Liverpool who was always what we old-timers called first reserve.  It took a lot of persuasion to tempt Ross to step down two divisions and once it was seen that a player of his calibre, who would have walked into any other first division team of the day was prepared to put his faith and reputation in us, then it made it so much easier to tempt a better quality of player to Villa Park.  For that we have Vic Crowe to thank.

I'm sorry, but I can't accept that Vic Crowe was a bad manager.  Vic began the real revolution because under him; we began winning again.

[dave.woodhall]

I don't know about God,but Crowe,sadly,being an ex-Villa player and seemingly good bloke,was not a good manager.
His best 2 buys ,Nicholl and Graydon,came from outside Div 1.Most were experienced players from reserve teams.Lochhead,Cumbes,Ross ,Robson,Beard,Vowden,,Hughes,Gibson,Evans and possibly Hockey. Some of these were ok but a fair bit of money spent with little sell on value,redolent of MON.
A manager who couldn't stop us going into Div 3 and couldn't finish above Halifax ,let alone come second.And in his last season went 12 games without a win in Div 2.
In his favour,a League Cup Final.(being Div 3 champs is not a honour for the Villa) and success in the US with Portland .There is a great article about this in an issue of 'When Saturday Comes'

I don't know if you were around then but if you were then I find it very hard to believe anyone who was a witness to what he inherited and the legacy he left behind will ever criticise Vic Crowe. There's a reason why we bought those players - they were what was needed at the time and the best that we, as a third division club, could attract. He took over a team that was headed to division three, almost avoided relegation, turned the club round, signed players when we were in the third division who went on to give good service in the first, provided the greatest night in Villa Park history, took a third division team to a cup final, kick-started the youth policy that provided Little, Gidman and four European Cup winners and had the best points per game record of any Villa manager ever.

[claretandbeer]

The youth team policy was started with Tommy Doc who brought back 30,000 gates. Vic Crowe inherited a badly managed squad that should have avoided the drop.Fortunately,the fans remained loyal,average attendance of 26,000 for a n unsuccessful campaign in Div 3.
Support which got mentioned regularly in the media and Shankly took up the theme of Villa being successful in the future.This would have been a factor in players moving down divisions.
Clough offered his services to Villa telling Ellis that they wouldn't win anything under Crowe,apart from Div 3 title he was right.
Brian Little had a phrase about what it takes to win a game of football.That quality seemed to elude Crowe,going on runs where we struggled to score let alone win. A quality that Saunders had in abundance. Rioch,such a gifted player and supreme striker of a ball,only scored 34 league goals for us in 5 seasons compared to a final tally of 160.
The transformation of Chico a season after Crowe's departure and similarly with Little and Leonard,maturity would help admittedly,also tells a tale.
We look back in fondness to those years because we felt Villa were on a journey back to the Promised Land after years in the wilderness. The optimism was lit by Docherty ,the fans and the board ! carried it on. I think that optimism would have faded if Crowe had continued another year. 29000 for the first home game in Div 3, 23000 for Saunders first home game v Norwich.

[dave.woodhall]

It's a bit difficult to win anything else when you're in the third division and did Brian Clough really "offer his services"? Yours is the first reference I've ever seen to it anywhere. It's odd that the art of winning apparently eluded Crowe, when as I said earlier he had the best record of any Villa manager and took us to our highest points total. Incidentally, Bruce Rioch didn't score 160 league goals, he scored 133. Around a quarter of these were for Villa, which isn't surprising as he played around a quarter of his total league games for us. But if you don't want to take my word for it, ask his players what they thought.   

[Damo70]

Having read a few books on Cloughy, there are a few mentions of a comment supposedly made to Doug at some point in the early to mid seventies. Whether this was when he was out of work or unhappy at Brighton and a serious offer or at another point when he was at Derby or Forest when he did like to tease other clubs and his own for his own ends has never been made clear.

[eastie]

It's a bit difficult to win anything else when you're in the third division and did Brian Clough really "offer his services"? Yours is the first reference I've ever seen to it anywhere. It's odd that the art of winning apparently eluded Crowe, when as I said earlier he had the best record of any Villa manager and took us to our highest points total. Incidentally, Bruce Rioch didn't score 160 league goals, he scored 133. Around a quarter of these were for Villa, which isn't surprising as he played around a quarter of his total league games for us. But if you don't want to take my word for it, ask his players what they thought.   

I'm sure doug referred to this too- cant recall if in his book or on a forum or if it was in cloughie a book- i think cloughie was told the job was his if he applied for it but he said no way would he apply for a job - so it never happened as doug insisted he apply and clough wanted the job but wouldn't apply as a matter of principle - i will try and find out more on this .

[PeterWithesShin]

I've read more than once (can't remember where) that Clough was interested. IIRC it would have been around 1972 or '73. Still, the bloke we did get didn't do too bad as it turns out so we didn't really miss out that much.

[eastie]

I've read more than once (can't remember where) that Clough was interested. IIRC it would have been around 1972 or '73. Still, the bloke we did get didn't do too bad as it turns out so we didn't really miss out that much.

He was at derby at the time .

[eastie]

Found this piece in the independant-

Intriguingly, Ellis claimed in his autobiography, Deadly!, that he had twice rejected approaches during the early 1970s by Martin O'Neill's mentor, Brian Clough, to take over as Villa manager. On the last occasion he said he told Clough: "It would never work - there's only one boss at Aston Villa, and that's me."

[Steve R]

The criticism of Vic Crowe is a very odd take on events, and not particularly accurate. I can't speak up for him any better than Dave has.

The club owes him a great debt of gratitude.

[Oscar Arce]

Vic Crowe did a great job at a very difficult time for the club. The players he bought were to get us out of that division and players like George Curtis and Andy Lochead were invaluable in this objective, even short-term measures such as playing Harry Gregory in midfield worked in vtal parts of the season and signing players such as Vowden who scored some vital goals from midfield too.
Don't agree with the Rioch point either as Tommy Doc used him as a striker a first and it was Crowe who moulded him into a tough-tackling midfielder who scored goals, and Crowe also blooded Gidman and Little both at 17 years of age so he wasn't a bad judge there either.
I cannot agree that he was not a good manager, and I don't think you'll find many Villa fans who were around at that time agree either.

[dcdavecollett]

Hard to believe that anyone has harsh words to say about Vic Crowe.

He almost saved us from relegation to division three, brought us back up via a glorious Wembley final and came third in the second division, the very year before third place guaranteed automatic promotion.

Bad timing, Vic!

In the end, the board pulled the plug on funding for transfers, despite Crowe's very good record in this area, leaving Crowe to rely on the good players coming through (Gidman, Little, Cowans, Deehan, McDonald) to bring us up.

The first bad run he had, the board summarily dismissed him for not being 'glamorous' enough.

Ron Saunders was a fine manager but he must have thought all his birthdays had come at once when he saw what he had at Villa -a brilliant defence, several very good players elsewhere and a youth system that was just about to hit full flow.

Oh, and over £250,000 to spend -a fair amount in those days- from the sale of Bruce Rioch to Derby.