Jordan Bowery

[PeterWithesShin]

Bowery against West Ham. Fenton in midfield against ManUre. There's two quick ones.

Fenton was the same game I mentioned - so that doesn't count.

Bowery - please explain some more as he wasn't on the pitch when we scored our goals and won the game.

Yes it does count as you claimed Dalian on the wing was the only tactic in 45 years of following Villa that you could remember.

And two people have just explained Bowery to you, as have others previously on this thread.

[chrisf]

I've been watching Villa since I was 4 (45 years) and can only remember one game in isolation where tactics were a clear deciding factor in a match and that was BFR using Dalian out wide in the League Cup Final.

Ahh. OK. This thread makes more sense with this bit of information.

Enlighten me then  - I'm genuinely interested.

Just that, you know, tactics quite often affect the outcome of a match? Like ... er ... yesterday?
You can never prove it but most people think it's probably the case.

Tactics yesterday?  We took off an ineffective player and replaced him with someone we *hoped* would be better.  I don't call that tactics - that's common sense.   if I was playing someone £3m a year then that's the least I would expect.

Are you going to actually come up with any examples of tactical nous or just tell me about subs?

You've got me wrong. I'm not saying Lambert's a tactical genius. Far from it. The second half at VP vs Bradford was the most pathetic tactical display I've ever seen at this level. I'm just saying that tactics are very often the deciding factor in a closely matched game.

If you've not seen tactics affect a game for nigh on twenty years then you're watching it funny.

[OCD]

Tactics play a part in every game. I've just watched Liverpool-Albion. Albion kept it tight with a 4-5-1 line-up for 75 minutes and then went to 2 up top in the last 15 minutes. It was 0-0 when they made the change with Lukaku joining Long up top and they came away with a 2-0 win.

[WarszaVillan]

Ok fair enough OCD but that's still only two times in twenty years innit

[pestria]

I've been watching Villa since I was 4 (45 years) and can only remember one game in isolation where tactics were a clear deciding factor in a match and that was BFR using Dalian out wide in the League Cup Final.

Ahh. OK. This thread makes more sense with this bit of information.

Enlighten me then  - I'm genuinely interested.

Just that, you know, tactics quite often affect the outcome of a match? Like ... er ... yesterday?
You can never prove it but most people think it's probably the case.

Tactics yesterday?  We took off an ineffective player and replaced him with someone we *hoped* would be better.  I don't call that tactics - that's common sense.   if I was playing someone £3m a year then that's the least I would expect.

Are you going to actually come up with any examples of tactical nous or just tell me about subs?

You've got me wrong. I'm not saying Lambert's a tactical genius. Far from it. The second half at VP vs Bradford was the most pathetic tactical display I've ever seen at this level. I'm just saying that tactics are very often the deciding factor in a closely matched game.

If you've not seen tactics affect a game for nigh on twenty years then you're watching it funny.

I said where tactics in isolation (whatever that means) affected the outcome of a key game.  Of course there are loads of minor changes here and there that make a massive difference.  But generally most managers start off with their preferred system and pick the best 11 to implement it.  If it isn't working they tinker with subs, try to nullify opposition layers having a good game.  Maybe I underestimate managers but I often sense they think 'this isn't working' lets try to shake things up, let's throw on an extra striker etc.

I maintain it is vanishingly rare that a manager totally out thinks his opposite number and a lesser team wins by dint of formation, asking players to adopt unfamiliar roles and change their general way of play.  The team that wins the league generally has the best 11 players (or squad these days).

Somewhat interestingly ManU maybe bucking this trend in not having the standout best squad but are currently leading the league by 12(?) points.  But then again having Van Persie and Rooney makes for a lot of deficiencies elsewhere at Premiership level at least.

[pestria]

Bowery against West Ham. Fenton in midfield against ManUre. There's two quick ones.

Fenton was the same game I mentioned - so that doesn't count.

Bowery - please explain some more as he wasn't on the pitch when we scored our goals and won the game.

Yes it does count as you claimed Dalian on the wing was the only tactic in 45 years of following Villa that you could remember.

And two people have just explained Bowery to you, as have others previously on this thread.

A couple of people have mentioned the Baggies.  Sorry to be a pedant - please explain Bowery vs. WHU to me.

[PeterWithesShin]

It's been explained a few times already by different posters. Me saying pretty much the same thing again isn't going to change your view if you don't understand or agree with them.

[pestria]

It's been explained a few times already by different posters. Me saying pretty much the same thing again isn't going to change your view if you don't understand or agree with them.

No - I think it would.  Please try - or at least quote the bits others have posted that you think adequately explain your point.

[PeterWithesShin]

Or you could just read the last few pages again.

[pestria]

Or you could just read the last few pages again.

I'll take that as you can't answer my question.

Others have made reasonable points which I have acknowledged and debated.  You have patronised and condescended.

I feel disappointed you couldn't engage in a more constructive way.

[chrisf]

I maintain it is vanishingly rare that a manager totally out thinks his opposite number and a lesser team wins by dint of formation, asking players to adopt unfamiliar roles and change their general way of play.  The team that wins the league generally has the best 11 players (or squad these days).

No. It's not vanishingly rare. It's pretty common really.

Ask yourself this: How did lowly Southampton beat Man city on Saturday?

Clearly Man City had the better players.

How can that happen?

Some of Southampton's side were probably from the Championship or below. Definitely not EPL standard.

Tactics? Act of God?

[Lastfootstamper]

Surely every result from last season was down to tactics? Despite them not powering you into an 8-0 lead by half-time, they're still tactics

[danno]

It does seem odd that by playing 3 forwards, we're actually more defensive than when playing Bent and Benteke up top.
But yesterday Bowery and Weimann essentially dropped back to make it a 4-5-1.

Bowery (I'm assuming) was asked to cover his fullback, provide an out ball and run the channel. Which he did.
I think he was played to make us more solid, and not as some potent attacking force.
If that was indeed his job, then as he left the field before West Ham scored, perhaps his inclusion was tactically sound?
When West Ham made changes we made ours, switched to a 4-4-2 (which also made us more open) and we won.

Bowery did a similar job against Ipswich on the opposite flank, after sixty minutes Gabby came on and we won.
That was either Bowery being ineffective, or Lambert believing a recently returning to fitness Gabby would be more effective coming on against tired legs for thirty minutes, rather than running against fresh legs for sixty minutes.

Both are tactics and judgement calls on Paul Lambert's part.
Personally as we won both games, I'm finding it difficult to criticise Bowery's inclusion.

[Somniloquism]

I maintain it is vanishingly rare that a manager totally out thinks his opposite number and a lesser team wins by dint of formation, asking players to adopt unfamiliar roles and change their general way of play.  The team that wins the league generally has the best 11 players (or squad these days).

No. It's not vanishingly rare. It's pretty common really.

Ask yourself this: How did lowly Southampton beat Man city on Saturday?

Clearly Man City had the better players.

How can that happen?

Some of Southampton's side were probably from the Championship or below. Definitely not EPL standard.

Tactics? Act of God?

TBF, a strange one to pick when all three goals were gifted to some degree, although they certianly did play better.

[PeterWithesShin]

I've answered most that you asked. The only ones I haven't answered are about Bowery as it has already been explained more than once, which you acknowledge. So I can only assume you are trolling to keep wanting it repeated yet again.
And the wider concept of tactics which when you said you can only think of one in 45 years that determined a result indicates it would have to be an indepth explanation which I can't be arsed to spend time writing.

And I probably have been. Sorry if I have but it's hard to be honest and not be blunt.