Thinking The Unthinkable

[silhillvilla]

FFS Sunderland winning

[Brian Taylor]

FFS Sunderland winning

Away!!  ffs!

[SoccerHQ]

I'm sick of the same posters who keep saying the football  is worse.. you know who you are! you never say anything positive. Lambert and the lads need support not sniping. Some of you seem to spend 24 hours on a keyboard  'supporting' . Yeah things don't look good from a far but most can see we play better football at least.

Just what is better football, though? To my mind, the better football is the kind that wins games. And we don't seem to be doing that very often.

The better football was the first 60 minutes against Manure last week before the predicatble comeback. It was certainly better than the equivilant fixture last season when TSM was celebrating a 1-0 defeat.

The time to judge is after Stoke. We'll have a pretty good indication then if the second half of the season will be painful or pretty painless.

[myf]

sunderland looked garbage . they were under the cosh for large parts even when fulham were down to 10 men. if they win their game in hand they'll be on 15 points tho! its been a dire weekend!

[Irish villain]

FFS Sunderland winning

Away!!  ffs!

Table looks dreadful now.

[Irish villain]

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if the point has been made already.

In my view, the mistake was Houllier. That was the beginning of the rot. If we had got that appointment right we could be playing regular Champions League football now. If we had got in a hungry manager with good contacts on the continent we could have got more from our existing players and found a few talents on the continent. MON had reached the end of the road and the club had reached a crossroads but crucially we had the prestige to get in a top manager to take us to the next level and more prizemoney etc. Instead of setting the 'PL experience and no job' criteria we should have drawn up a list of managers and chased them. We ended up appointing somebody who never seemed to be that hungry for the job ad thought anything from 7th down was about our place in English football. That season was real struggle despite the 9th place finish. Up until April it looked very dangerous for us.  It was the appointment of Houllier that sowed the seeds of doubt as to the footballing nous of the club. It was just such a bad fit and evey other week there was a new PR disaster as the club lost its way somewhat. Houllier was never a long-term appointment, it was just ridiculous.

Once he went and we very publicly got rejected by Martinez it was clear that we no longer had the prestige that we had the previous year. It was also clear that there would be no more big spending (Houllier got £30m to spend) so we were never going to get a Grade A manager. Our confidence in the board and the future of the club were rocked completely by the appointment of TSM. As my friend sais last night, maybe  McLeish did a good job keeping 'you lot up'? Maybe he did.

But our plight is the fault of terrible miss-management at the top. If we stay up (i still think we will) it will be a long hard road back to mid-table security and from there to anything above eight.

Thank you Randy.

Great post.

I don't really agree with this at all. The latter half of 2010/11 our form was top six. It was the summer of 2011 that was crucial: the combination of appointing McLeish and selling Downing. Losing Young to Man Utd was expected. Selling Downing was a big mistake even if we got a lot of money for him: he was player of the season, and selling our two of our best players instead of just one sent a terrible signal.

We could have got a grade A (ie a competent) manager in 2011. Rafa Benitez was obviously interested, and even if he wasn't the right fit (I doubt the board ever really pursued the option), it is obvious that they could have found someone better than the man who had just relegated Birmingham City.

Also, the notion that Houllier wasn't hungry is largely unfounded. He worked more hours in a week than his predeccessor did in a month. His philosophical reaction to defeat shouldn't be interpreted as defeatism.

I agree that Houllier was a poor appointment, but that was largely because he was brought in to do a three-season project but only had the health for 75 per cent of a season.

I didn't see much evidence of Hunger when Houllier was here. There was a horrible vibe at the club for most of that season. I agree our form picked up from January but there was still a lot to grumble about and talk of 'uniting to get the club over the line'. I think we could have got a better manager then and it could have transformed us. Do you not think that Houllier had a terrible habit of hanging the players in public, especially the younger ones? I was never enthused while he was our manager and felt he oversold all his achievements and singled out others for his failures. His treatment of Ginola when France didn't qualify for USA'94 was shameful.

I didn't mean to imply that I thought McLeish did a good job, he's one of the worst managers in villa history and I'd have kept Houllier or GM over getting in TSM. Wasn't trying to be revisionist about TSM's shambolic performance, just that I think we really missed a trick when MON left. After TSM we went and got our man, the man we wanted. We should have been equally ruthless in 2010 and we probably wouldn't have had such a torrid time since if we had gone about things differently then.

[LeeB]

I know things are looking bleak but some seem to thrive when we lose..

That sort of point just isn't worth debating.

Agree. Quite insulting actually.

You've gone soft, you pair.

There has been the odd poster who only ever surfaces when times are bleak.

Who?

Don't tell me Gregnash, he doesn't count as he's a wild card on  a wind up.

I do find the suggestion of 'thriving when we lose' insulting.
I want us to be winners and nothing makes me happier when we're doing that (at least from what I can remember)

I don't dispute that for a minute mate, and it wasn't aimed at you or Risso, but given some of the utterly bizarre posters we've had on here down the years you cannot rule it out.

For example, old Malcolm hated O'Neill more than he loved the Villa.

[eastie]

I know things are looking bleak but some seem to thrive when we lose..

That sort of point just isn't worth debating.

Agree. Quite insulting actually.

You've gone soft, you pair.

There has been the odd poster who only ever surfaces when times are bleak.

Who?

Don't tell me Gregnash, he doesn't count as he's a wild card on  a wind up.

I do find the suggestion of 'thriving when we lose' insulting.
I want us to be winners and nothing makes me happier when we're doing that (at least from what I can remember)

I don't dispute that for a minute mate, and it wasn't aimed at you or Risso, but given some of the utterly bizarre posters we've had on here down the years you cannot rule it out.

For example, old Malcolm hated O'Neill more than he loved the Villa.

Ah Malcolm- whatever happened to that excitable gentleman?

[LeeB]

O'Neill left.

[SoccerHQ]

I wanted Houllier gone. But if for a second I knew his replacement would be TSM I'd have given him another season as maybe Downing would've stayed in and he would've created some goals for Bent.

In any case I think his heart issues made that academic anyway.
e
I think it's fair to say by and large the board's decisions since MON left have been a shambles. Even the Houllier appointment when we had to wait for him to get some time off from the French FA before he could take charge, it was doomed from that moment really.

[Eigentor]

Irish: I agree that 2010/11 wasn't good. We were close to the relegation zone for much of the season, and there was an obvious lack of harmony at the club. Some of it was Houllier's fault, but a lot of it was down to players accustomed to MON's lax regime rebelling against having to work for their wages.

The point I was arguing against was that the rot started with appointing Houllier. Despite all the troubles, we ended ninth, beating Arsenal and Liverpool at the end, and having signed Darren Bent on a record transfer, it wasn't obvious that we were a club on our way down. That was only apparent, to me, at least, when we sold Downing (the sale of Young was expected) and the inexplicable appointment of TSM.

[danlanza]

Just read first page of this thread and no more.
Here is my view, for what it counts.
Against Manyoooo we played fantastic football.
Yesterday, we were awfull, only in the second half, again.
If we have a team that can only play for 45 mins then we are doomed, destined for relegation.
Yesterday, watching 5 screens, different games on each. Albion beat Chelski,Norwich beat Manyooo, Pool beat Wigan and we get thrashed out of sight against Citeh. Somebody, please, tell me what the fuck is going on with our club because i am really starting to doubt our ambition and expectation.
Ladies and gents, we are in the shit now, with no sign of things getting better soon. Yes,we have a bad December, but for fucksake can we actually win a game this month ? Arsenal next, at home. FFS. Where are we going to be when it comes to the crunch ? I am now, seriously worried about our future in the prem. I am on the side of Fin Feds Dad, serious reservaions about everything, and this makes me very sad, as a Villa fan. To see us last season, suffering and negative.  This season, suffering and believing in a messiah. Is it going to happen ?
I think personaly, that we are going to struggle to stay up this season, and again ,i am sad. We are Villa, and always will be. I just cannot see a way out at the moment. Good young squad, but it is going to be like this all saeson. Iam a very sad Villa fan today. ALWAYS UTV.

[Irish villain]

Irish: I agree that 2010/11 wasn't good. We were close to the relegation zone for much of the season, and there was an obvious lack of harmony at the club. Some of it was Houllier's fault, but a lot of it was down to players accustomed to MON's lax regime rebelling against having to work for their wages.

The point I was arguing against was that the rot started with appointing Houllier. Despite all the troubles, we ended ninth, beating Arsenal and Liverpool at the end, and having signed Darren Bent on a record transfer, it wasn't obvious that we were a club on our way down. That was only apparent, to me, at least, when we sold Downing (the sale of Young was expected) and the inexplicable appointment of TSM.

Fair point. But I'm guessing you would agree that had we shown more ambition then we could have got a manager to take us from sixth to the next level? Actually it has just occurred to me, I wonder would Downing have stayed if Houllier had? McLeish arriving prob sent the same message to the players as it did to us fans.

[Eigentor]

I'm subscribing to the view that Houllier was largely right in his apparent assessment that there was little to build on with what MON left behind. MON's trick was to get the best out of a bunch of (with a few exceptions) average players. To finish higher than sixth we needed better players, or at least players with more potential prepared to diet and practice to make the most of their careers -- and with that a change of culture at the club. A complete overhaul and not minor tinkering was needed to progress from sixth.

If we, following Houllier's departure, had appointed someone with similar ideas, with a similar standing in the game (in European football, Houllier isn't a nobody), similar contacts, better success rate in the transfer market (his record at Liverpool was mixed) and maybe less intransigent -- in short, someone who would, by and large, had continued what Houllier started, we would have been a better shape than we are now. Instead we went back to square one: appointing someone who perhaps was a nicer man than MON, but who as a manager, had the same limitations.

Even though it was a squad that finished sixth last season, it was also a squad that looked as if it had barely done any pre-season work, a squad that had lost its best and most important player, and a squad where the most influential members perhaps weren't the most professional. Add to that the board had to find a manager just at the start of the season (not the ideal time), I can forgive them for opting for Houllier. It was a reasonable gamble that didn't pay off. But at the time it didn't look like the worst possible appointment at all. McLeish, on the other hand, was pretty close to that.

[ROBBO]

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if the point has been made already.

In my view, the mistake was Houllier. That was the beginning of the rot. If we had got that appointment right we could be playing regular Champions League football now. If we had got in a hungry manager with good contacts on the continent we could have got more from our existing players and found a few talents on the continent. MON had reached the end of the road and the club had reached a crossroads but crucially we had the prestige to get in a top manager to take us to the next level and more prizemoney etc. Instead of setting the 'PL experience and no job' criteria we should have drawn up a list of managers and chased them. We ended up appointing somebody who never seemed to be that hungry for the job ad thought anything from 7th down was about our place in English football. That season was real struggle despite the 9th place finish. Up until April it looked very dangerous for us.  It was the appointment of Houllier that sowed the seeds of doubt as to the footballing nous of the club. It was just such a bad fit and evey other week there was a new PR disaster as the club lost its way somewhat. Houllier was never a long-term appointment, it was just ridiculous.

Once he went and we very publicly got rejected by Martinez it was clear that we no longer had the prestige that we had the previous year. It was also clear that there would be no more big spending (Houllier got £30m to spend) so we were never going to get a Grade A manager. Our confidence in the board and the future of the club were rocked completely by the appointment of TSM. As my friend sais last night, maybe  McLeish did a good job keeping 'you lot up'? Maybe he did.

But our plight is the fault of terrible miss-management at the top. If we stay up (i still think we will) it will be a long hard road back to mid-table security and from there to anything above eight.

Thank you Randy.

Great post.

I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if the point has been made already.

In my view, the mistake was Houllier. That was the beginning of the rot. If we had got that appointment right we could be playing regular Champions League football now. If we had got in a hungry manager with good contacts on the continent we could have got more from our existing players and found a few talents on the continent. MON had reached the end of the road and the club had reached a crossroads but crucially we had the prestige to get in a top manager to take us to the next level and more prizemoney etc. Instead of setting the 'PL experience and no job' criteria we should have drawn up a list of managers and chased them. We ended up appointing somebody who never seemed to be that hungry for the job ad thought anything from 7th down was about our place in English football. That season was real struggle despite the 9th place finish. Up until April it looked very dangerous for us.  It was the appointment of Houllier that sowed the seeds of doubt as to the footballing nous of the club. It was just such a bad fit and evey other week there was a new PR disaster as the club lost its way somewhat. Houllier was never a long-term appointment, it was just ridiculous.

Once he went and we very publicly got rejected by Martinez it was clear that we no longer had the prestige that we had the previous year. It was also clear that there would be no more big spending (Houllier got £30m to spend) so we were never going to get a Grade A manager. Our confidence in the board and the future of the club were rocked completely by the appointment of TSM. As my friend sais last night, maybe  McLeish did a good job keeping 'you lot up'? Maybe he did.

But our plight is the fault of terrible miss-management at the top. If we stay up (i still think we will) it will be a long hard road back to mid-table security and from there to anything above eight.

Thank you Randy.

Great post.

I don't really agree with this at all. The latter half of 2010/11 our form was top six. It was the summer of 2011 that was crucial: the combination of appointing McLeish and selling Downing. Losing Young to Man Utd was expected. Selling Downing was a big mistake even if we got a lot of money for him: he was player of the season, and selling our two of our best players instead of just one sent a terrible signal.

We could have got a grade A (ie a competent) manager in 2011. Rafa Benitez was obviously interested, and even if he wasn't the right fit (I doubt the board ever really pursued the option), it is obvious that they could have found someone better than the man who had just relegated Birmingham City.

Also, the notion that Houllier wasn't hungry is largely unfounded. He worked more hours in a week than his predeccessor did in a month. His philosophical reaction to defeat shouldn't be interpreted as defeatism.

I agree that Houllier was a poor appointment, but that was largely because he was brought in to do a three-season project but only had the health for 75 per cent of a season.


Oneil left because the money dried up and he left us with a very average squad on huge wages that no other club wanted. Any top manager thinking of coming to Villa would have wanted 50 mil to spend. Lerner decided to pull the pin on big spending and we have gone backwards ever since.