Heroes & Villains, the Aston Villa fanzine
Heroes & Villains => Heroes Discussion => Topic started by: brian green on November 18, 2012, 07:12:12 AM
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Before I say this let me make it clear I do not hold to the view but as this season unwinds and our Premiership place looks no more secure than it has for the previous two seasons there is an emerging case for the defence of TSM.
Okay, so the football we are playing this season is a big improvement and as someone on here put it recently the manager is less easily hated than his predecessor but you cannot escape the simple fact that we still cannot drag ourselves out of the relegation zone.
Ever since whatever happened between O'Neill and the owner and the board and the club began a policy of cost cutting for me my hopes for the club I have supported all my long life have become the simple hope of the survival in the Premiership. Forget cups, forget europe, being a Villa fan has become a joyless, anxiety dominated torture.
Are we doing the right thing attempting to play swashbuckling football or have Stoke and West Ham got it right?
In our longing to see fast, attacking, passing football are we overlooking the simple glaring fact that to be able to play that way you have to have players of adequate quality? Are our players good enough to play swashbuckling football? The table after twelve games says they are not.
Perhaps TSM accepted that the constraints placed upon him by the board and the owner made attractive football impossible and he just got us to hunker down and survive and we made it - just.
I have a feeling that Christmas will see us still in the relegation zone and that any players who come in will be brought in to play survival football not pass-and-move.
I do not think the owner will provide adequate funds to buy players of table climbing quality.
I hope I am wrong but I don't think I am.
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I think survival is the main thing now this season and we may need to bring in some older experienced battlers to help the young squad we've got, I wasn't sure about Robbie Keane coming back on loan but I think his quality and experience could help our young side - I doubt randy will splash big cash in January .
The worry for me is Norwich and saints both played very well yesterday and we really need to get points on the board sooner rather than later - we cannot afford to let a gap open up .
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Interesting perspective and to a point probably correct. I think you're saying (as a lot have alluded to on other threads) that it doesn't matter who manages us as the Board is inept??
I guess it wouild be the same in Industry - poor Board leadership will lead to poor company results and a poor share price.
We're in a dark place at the moment but we'll come through at some stage but I do beleive we need to habe stability with a manager as the first 'green shoot' of our receovery! Personally I don't think TSM would have been that manager!!
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The hatred of Mcleish was unjustified and embarassing. He was still the wrong choice though. Losing Petrov has been a massive problem. But our form this season is certainly no worse than the back half of last season, and in isolated patches has been better.
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No TSM got it wrong horribly, and got what he deserved as manager of Villa, but i think we will be lucky to finish any where near top half table, i had us down for 14th.
support the boys and Lambert we will be ok
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You know what Brian, the more this season goes the more i'm thinking the same. TSM was just trying to do the job his way within the constraints he had - it was incredibly unimaginative and he had to go but he wasn't our real problem. This is Lerners fault.
Much as i hate to defend the pube headed one, the decisions made at Boardroom level since that day are the reasons we are where we are. It just didn't have to be like this, not only have this managerial appointments been ham fisted and unbelievably poorly thought out, the leadership and virtual radio silence since the financial shit hit the fan just leaves me with the feeling that randy couldn't give a flying fuck about the club, apart from recouping his dwindling investment. To see the Proud History Bright Future tagline used at the Generals latest corporate quango makes me realise how duped i was.
We will not move forward until Lerner has gone and I just pray we survive until then.
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I don't dislike Eck at all. Initially he seemed a decent bloke, and honest and well aware of our shortcomings. I think toward the end, and backed into a corner he came across as a bit deluded and any (minimal) rapport he had with us went away. He was just in way over his head. We all knew what would happen. The only man who didn't was the man who hired McLeish. I don't think even McLeish was ever that confident that he could do anything but scrape through a relegation battle.
To some extent I think the job might just be too big for Lambert at this time. I hope not. I like him and what he wants to do here but either he needs to get more backing or he needs to widen the parameters of what he's looking for in the transfer market, or both.
Come May I think we'll survive by virtue of how piss poor the three teams below us our, but looking above I don't think the league table lies at all. We're well worth our placing. We deserve no more, no less. We can't just commend a desire to play decent football. Most of the teams bar 2-3 in this division are trying to do the same, and 16 teams are doing it better. Even as bad as Stokes brand of football is, at least it's been effective since they've come up. Their remit is always survival and they've done that and also managed to play in Europe too.
Our gameplan as yet is ineffective. If it never clicks, and given the current squad, that's a strong liklihood, then we'll be in trouble. I don't think it'll happen but it's not impossible for one of the three below us to go on a run. Maybe QPR will spunk 20 mill in jan and finally click, or change manager and have a good run. Unlikely but you never know. Right now I don't see where we're gonna pull 30 points from in the remaining games. I really don't.
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You know what Brian, the more this season goes the more i'm thinking the same. TSM was just trying to do the job his way within the constraints he had - it was incredibly unimaginative and he had to go but he wasn't our real problem. This is Lerners fault.
Much as i hate to defend the pube headed one, the decisions made at Boardroom level since that day are the reasons we are where we are. It just didn't have to be like this, not only have this managerial appointments been ham fisted and unbelievably poorly thought out, the leadership and virtual radio silence since the financial shit hit the fan just leaves me with the feeling that randy couldn't give a flying fuck about the club, apart from recouping his dwindling investment. To see the Proud History Bright Future tagline used at the Generals latest corporate quango makes me realise how duped i was.
We will not move forward until Lerner has gone and I just pray we survive until then.
Good post - Lerner seems to avoid a lot of criticism from many , although I think Faulkner should carry the blame along with Lerner, the silence at boardroom level is a worry , we don't need to hear from him every week but it would be nice to see what randys ambitions for the club are now and where he feels we are heading, he is not a man who talks to the press much but nothing stopping him putting a statement on the website every now and again.
The Liverpool owners seem much more open with their supporters.
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You know what Brian, the more this season goes the more i'm thinking the same. TSM was just trying to do the job his way within the constraints he had - it was incredibly unimaginative and he had to go but he wasn't our real problem. This is Lerners fault.
Much as i hate to defend the pube headed one, the decisions made at Boardroom level since that day are the reasons we are where we are. It just didn't have to be like this, not only have this managerial appointments been ham fisted and unbelievably poorly thought out, the leadership and virtual radio silence since the financial shit hit the fan just leaves me with the feeling that randy couldn't give a flying fuck about the club, apart from recouping his dwindling investment. To see the Proud History Bright Future tagline used at the Generals latest corporate quango makes me realise how duped i was.
We will not move forward until Lerner has gone and I just pray we survive until then.
Good post - Lerner seems to avoid a lot of criticism from many , although I think Faulkner should carry the blame along with Lerner, the silence at boardroom level is a worry , we don't need to hear from him every week but it would be nice to see what randys ambitions for the club are now and where he feels we are heading, he is not a man who talks to the press much but nothing stopping him putting a statement on the website every now and again.
The Liverpool owners seem much more open with their supporters.
Faulkner can only operate within the constraints set by Lerner.
And, perhaps they have nothing to say - by which I mean: they ARE looking to reduce their cash-commitment to the club; they AREN'T going to invest in expensive playing staff. So, they have nothing they can say to us that isn't already obvious!
We are in a bind: on the one hand, Lambert has to tighten up the defence; and fast. On the other, he has limited resources / little opportunity to bring in the cavalry. Equally, he may get some cash in January to help us preserve our lucrative EPL status, but will he invest in short-term needs or continue to gamble on bringing in potential?
Once again, it all looks a little like a confused strategy to me: which - if it is - comes back to Lerner.
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PL survival is more or less everything these days unfortunately and it is tempting to take the pragmatic view in order to survive. However, in any almost any other season the paltry 38 points achieved by TSM would have seen us relegated. Despite the ultra-pragmatic approach, he was, and we were, very very lucky that there happened to be a batch of even poorer teams that saved us. Along the way he dished up some of the most joyless, hopeless, ambition-less, depressing and dispiriting anti-football ever played by a Villa team. The away "performance" at Spurs in particular was a disgrace to the name of Aston Villa. I was convinced he would take us down and frankly I thought we would have deserved it for not even trying to win. You could say it worked and it may have got better afterwards, but his record shows that last season wasn't a one-off - that was his M.O.
I know even 38 points looks a long way off at the moment, and the jury is still out on Lambert, but it's still early days. He still has time and a transfer window to turn it around, and with 2-3 experienced additions we would have a decent enough team. I'd doubt even Lerner is stupid enough not to cough up for some reinforcements in January. I also think we've been slightly unfortunate in that, after experimenting with line ups and losing some games we should probably have done better in, Lambert seemed to have settled on one that was looking quite decent, only to hit run of games against the best teams in the country. I think we'll be in a better position to judge if there is light at the end of the tunnel after the run of 3-4 games following the Arsenal game. If not, I suppose I can at least take some consolation in the fact I'm not ashamed of the way we're playing, even when we get thumped like yesterday.
I can't put my finger on why but I feel much better and more optimistic than I ever did under TSM.
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Well the difference being that we look like we actually try to win games under PL so we atleast have a chance in more matches.
TSM surrendered at least 12 games last season before a ball had been kicked so it effectively turned a 38 game season into a 26 game one. Which became rather galling when we saw other teams around us take points against those Clubs.
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The football isn't a big improvement though.
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It seems that those of us who did not want TSM from the start were vindicated.
BUT, by biggest worry is that most fans would have taken pretty much ANYBODY after TSM and hailed him as the new messiah.
Yes, it is early days I have real concerns over Lambert, but I am more concerned that we we have become a club used to losing and a club who appears content to just survive.
I worry a gap is going to open up between the bottom 3 or 4 and those above and that we do not have the consistency, players nor ability to put a run of results together.
Bloody hell, thinking about it, when was the last time we won 3 league games on the bounce?
It going to be a long, cold winter........again!
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I wonder what the different in job between Aston Villa and Norwich for Paul Lambert. Apart from different club, location, size, resources and players.
Also if we go on a winning run let say 4 or 5 games in a row, it would clear the pressure.
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The football isn't a big improvement though.
Nope it's arguable worse.
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I was one of those who didn't want TSM - not because of his association with our unruly neighbours, but because of his style of football, and his apparent inability to see that his style of football was not the 'high tempo, attacking football' he espoused in his email to us. If he was still here he would have taken us down and I was glad the board got rid. I was also pleased with the appointment of PL who at least 'has a go' in every game. But will that be enough? There are those that say if you build a squad with players from the lower leagues you end up in the lower leagues. Conversely others would say a good manager will mold that squad into a team that is more than the sum of its parts, and we have to hope that PL is that man.
The real worry is that our PL survival may depend on 3 teams being worse than us. Currently it looks like Southampton, Reading and QPR would be those three teams - a stark reminder of how far we've fallen in 3 years. The worry is that QPR and Reading have now got rich owners who are willing to spend, and indications are that Hughes will be replaced by Redknapp, and that Advocaat is lined up to replace McDermott. If those changes happen, and they spend big in January, we may well be fucked. But the real downer is encapsulated in Brian's original post: the fact is we are now just making up the numbers with no hope of winning the league, and little hope of winning cups or qualifying for European competition. If we survive this season I think PL will at best turn us into an entertaining mid-table side, and our lot seems to be that we can enjoy a decent game of football but forget about winning anything. Our only aim will be to survive on the gravy train that is the PL. A sad indictment of modern football.
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I think we're coming up to the point in the season when we should be seeing improved results. I'm praying we will.
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. I don't think it'll happen but it's not impossible for one of the three below us to go on a run. Maybe QPR will spunk 20 mill in jan and finally click, or change manager and have a good run. Unlikely but you never know. Right now I don't see where we're gonna pull 30 points from in the remaining games. I really don't.
The problem is that the teams below us do not need to go on a run. They just need to accrue a couple more points than us over 25 games. For at least two of them that is not unlikely.
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When I watch us now I'm surprised if we play well and even more surprised if we win.
My expectations are at just about the lowest I can remember from my 40 years of supporting the Villa.
I also can't see much changing, if we survive this season we potentially face the same next season, we have turned into Wolves.
We survived last season due to the teams below us being worse than us, we are now thinking that there are worse teams than us so we should be ok this season!
I have a really bad feeling that this season there won't be three teams worse than us, we have become one of the worse teams that help others to survive
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I don't dislike Eck at all. Initially he seemed a decent bloke, and honest and well aware of our shortcomings. I think toward the end, and backed into a corner he came across as a bit deluded and any (minimal) rapport he had with us went away. He was just in way over his head. We all knew what would happen. The only man who didn't was the man who hired McLeish. I don't think even McLeish was ever that confident that he could do anything but scrape through a relegation battle.
To some extent I think the job might just be too big for Lambert at this time. I hope not. I like him and what he wants to do here but either he needs to get more backing or he needs to widen the parameters of what he's looking for in the transfer market, or both.
Come May I think we'll survive by virtue of how piss poor the three teams below us our, but looking above I don't think the league table lies at all. We're well worth our placing. We deserve no more, no less. We can't just commend a desire to play decent football. Most of the teams bar 2-3 in this division are trying to do the same, and 16 teams are doing it better. Even as bad as Stokes brand of football is, at least it's been effective since they've come up. Their remit is always survival and they've done that and also managed to play in Europe too.
Our gameplan as yet is ineffective. If it never clicks, and given the current squad, that's a strong liklihood, then we'll be in trouble. I don't think it'll happen but it's not impossible for one of the three below us to go on a run. Maybe QPR will spunk 20 mill in jan and finally click, or change manager and have a good run. Unlikely but you never know. Right now I don't see where we're gonna pull 30 points from in the remaining games. I really don't.
Well I assume you are referring To Norwich ,Southampton and QPR as" piss poor". Well from what I saw on MOTD highlights this morning both Norwich and Southampton looked far far away from that. QPR,however were dreadful.
Norwich appear to be playing well now and I noticed why they have improved. They have players of physical power who attack with speed and aggression just as they did under Lambert. You need physical power at the top level. Our midfield players at the moment are Bannan Ireland, Westwood and I suppose Agbonlahor none of whom can tackle although Ireland does try although its totally alien to him.
We have got to get power into that midfield. Clark would be a start I certainly dont trust him at centre back. Nathan Baker must come in and
we might have a reliable defensive pairing. And for gods sake we need one rampaging winger. I know Lambert thinks thats "old fashioned" but you know the dour Scot might just be wrong.
Mr Lerner is keeping his distance no doubt hoping things will sort themselves out . At the moment it doesnt look that way but you never know.
No doubt Arsenal will see us off but we have to beat Reading that is imperative. And come Jan Mr Lambert and Mr Lerner had better get it right in the transfer window or we could be heading south to join the likes of Leeds and Sheff Wed famous clubs who couldnt turn their fortunes around.
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The3 games after Arsenal are critical -
Reading, QPR, Stoke. We will need 9 points.
We then have Liverpool and Chelsea both away.
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I'm sick of the same posters who keep saying the football is worse.. you know who you are! you never say anything positive. Lambert and the lads need support not sniping. Some of you seem to spend 24 hours on a keyboard 'supporting' . Yeah things don't look good from a far but most can see we play better football at least.
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Personally I'd take crap football and getting results and staying in the PL over what we currently have. And I'm not convinced were even playing decent football. Maybe the odd flash.
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So last week, we were sure that all would be well, we'd definitely be clear of relegation, Benteke was going to get snapped up by Real Madrid and we were delighted with Lambert's ethos of bringing in young, talented players.
We get smashed at the league champions and suddenly....
We're shit,
everyone knows it,
we're definitely getting relegated...
This run of games was always going to be incredibly tough but once past Arsenal, we will start to see where we're really at. The Man U game for me really showed we have the quality there to go up this table with a few wins on the trot, we were never going to get these against the top 2.
I don't even mind people thinking we'll go down, it's just this endless swinging from one extreme to the other.
We'll be fine lads, keep your heads screwed on
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I'm sick of the same posters who keep saying the football is worse.. you know who you are! you never say anything positive. Lambert and the lads need support not sniping. Some of you seem to spend 24 hours on a keyboard 'supporting' . Yeah things don't look good from a far but most can see we play better football at least.
Well done, 'Better Fan Than You' Post Of The Week award.
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Personally I'd take crap football and getting results and staying in the PL over what we currently have. And I'm not convinced were even playing decent football. Maybe the odd flash.
You'd still find something to moan about.
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I'm sick of the same posters who keep saying the football is worse.. you know who you are! you never say anything positive. Lambert and the lads need support not sniping. Some of you seem to spend 24 hours on a keyboard 'supporting' . Yeah things don't look good from a far but most can see we play better football at least.
Fair enough.
We'll say everything is great even when it's patently shit.
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Personally I'd take crap football and getting results and staying in the PL over what we currently have. And I'm not convinced were even playing decent football. Maybe the odd flash.
You'd still find something to moan about.
You're probably correct ;)
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As mentioned earlier, Lambert has been struggling to find the right balance -- and just when he found something that could work, we're playing the two best teams in the country. Also as mentioned earlier, the three games after the Arsenal match should tell us whether we're moving in the right direction or not. Matches against Utd and City won't tell us that.
Allthough Lambert hasn't exactly looked like a tactical mastermind so far (eg. witness our leaking defence), I'd argue that he has an air of competence that McLeish never had.
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I'm sick of the same posters who keep saying the football is worse.. you know who you are! you never say anything positive. Lambert and the lads need support not sniping. Some of you seem to spend 24 hours on a keyboard 'supporting' . Yeah things don't look good from a far but most can see we play better football at least.
Just what is better football, though? To my mind, the better football is the kind that wins games. And we don't seem to be doing that very often.
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So last week, we were sure that all would be well, we'd definitely be clear of relegation, Benteke was going to get snapped up by Real Madrid and we were delighted with Lambert's ethos of bringing in young, talented players.
We get smashed at the league champions and suddenly....
We're shit,
everyone knows it,
we're definitely getting relegated...
This run of games was always going to be incredibly tough but once past Arsenal, we will start to see where we're really at. The Man U game for me really showed we have the quality there to go up this table with a few wins on the trot, we were never going to get these against the top 2.
I don't even mind people thinking we'll go down, it's just this endless swinging from one extreme to the other.
We'll be fine lads, keep your heads screwed on
I happen to agree with this. The old cliche about the season being a marathon not a sprint is an apt one. I mean, under DOL of all people we were 18th at Christmas and 6th by May.
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So last week, we were sure that all would be well, we'd definitely be clear of relegation, Benteke was going to get snapped up by Real Madrid and we were delighted with Lambert's ethos of bringing in young, talented players.
We get smashed at the league champions and suddenly....
We're shit,
everyone knows it,
we're definitely getting relegated...
This run of games was always going to be incredibly tough but once past Arsenal, we will start to see where we're really at. The Man U game for me really showed we have the quality there to go up this table with a few wins on the trot, we were never going to get these against the top 2.
I don't even mind people thinking we'll go down, it's just this endless swinging from one extreme to the other.
We'll be fine lads, keep your heads screwed on
I happen to agree with this. The old cliche about the season being a marathon not a sprint is an apt one. I mean, under DOL of all people we were 18th at Christmas and 6th by May.
Rubbish, on Boxing Day 2003 we were 12th.
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Rubbish, on Boxing Day 2003 we were 12th.
Nosebleed territory for us, that.
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Did Randy miss a trick?
Newcastle went down, got rid of who they wanted then rebuilt, West Ham have done the same.
Should we have just bit the bullet, gone down and rebuilt instead of buying Bent?
The problem we have now, is this isn't an option now, because of the new revenues coming in next year.
I know there is no gaurantee you will come straight back up, but, maybe it was a risk worth taking for the future of the club, because this is no fun scrapping at the bottom three years in a row.
Hopefully it's irrelivent, Lambert keeps us up and we have a good few years of entertainment.
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So last week, we were sure that all would be well, we'd definitely be clear of relegation, Benteke was going to get snapped up by Real Madrid and we were delighted with Lambert's ethos of bringing in young, talented players.
We get smashed at the league champions and suddenly....
We're shit,
everyone knows it,
we're definitely getting relegated...
This run of games was always going to be incredibly tough but once past Arsenal, we will start to see where we're really at. The Man U game for me really showed we have the quality there to go up this table with a few wins on the trot, we were never going to get these against the top 2.
I don't even mind people thinking we'll go down, it's just this endless swinging from one extreme to the other.
We'll be fine lads, keep your heads screwed on
I happen to agree with this. The old cliche about the season being a marathon not a sprint is an apt one. I mean, under DOL of all people we were 18th at Christmas and 6th by May.
Rubbish, on Boxing Day 2003 we were 12th.
Bloody memory. Anyway, I distinctly remember us being relegation zone at some point that season. Though I might have dreamed it.
Anyway, I think we're showing a few signs of life, I don't think we'll get relegated and we'll climb up the table around the Christmas period and new year, and I don't think changing my mind based on one heavy defeat at the home of a team who've spent half a billion on their current squad.
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So last week, we were sure that all would be well, we'd definitely be clear of relegation, Benteke was going to get snapped up by Real Madrid and we were delighted with Lambert's ethos of bringing in young, talented players.
We get smashed at the league champions and suddenly....
We're shit,
everyone knows it,
we're definitely getting relegated...
This run of games was always going to be incredibly tough but once past Arsenal, we will start to see where we're really at. The Man U game for me really showed we have the quality there to go up this table with a few wins on the trot, we were never going to get these against the top 2.
I don't even mind people thinking we'll go down, it's just this endless swinging from one extreme to the other.
We'll be fine lads, keep your heads screwed on
Good post, I believe Arsenal are beatable though.
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So last week, we were sure that all would be well, we'd definitely be clear of relegation, Benteke was going to get snapped up by Real Madrid and we were delighted with Lambert's ethos of bringing in young, talented players.
We get smashed at the league champions and suddenly....
We're shit,
everyone knows it,
we're definitely getting relegated...
This run of games was always going to be incredibly tough but once past Arsenal, we will start to see where we're really at. The Man U game for me really showed we have the quality there to go up this table with a few wins on the trot, we were never going to get these against the top 2.
I don't even mind people thinking we'll go down, it's just this endless swinging from one extreme to the other.
We'll be fine lads, keep your heads screwed on
Good post, I believe Arsenal are beatable though.
Agreed, darkest hour and all that. Plus, I think Benteke might just have been plucked out of Arsene Wenger's worst nightmares.
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I still think we will get out of it we just need a couple of result's then we will be ok.
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Arsenal was hopeless against Spurs till Adebayor had a mental moment
If anything it's going to be a question who who scores the most as neither team can defend.
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I'm sick of the same posters who keep saying the football is worse.. you know who you are! you never say anything positive. Lambert and the lads need support not sniping. Some of you seem to spend 24 hours on a keyboard 'supporting' . Yeah things don't look good from a far but most can see we play better football at least.
Yes because there's so much to be positive about this season!
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. I don't think it'll happen but it's not impossible for one of the three below us to go on a run. Maybe QPR will spunk 20 mill in jan and finally click, or change manager and have a good run. Unlikely but you never know. Right now I don't see where we're gonna pull 30 points from in the remaining games. I really don't.
The problem is that the teams below us do not need to go on a run. They just need to accrue a couple more points than us over 25 games. For at least two of them that is not unlikely.
Actually you are both wrong. There are only two teams below us:
17 (18) Reading 11 1 6 4 14 19 -5 9
18 (17) Aston Villa 12 2 3 7 10 22 -12 9
19 (19) Southampton 12 2 2 8 18 30 -12 8
20 (20) Queens Park Rangers 12 0 4 8 9 23 -14 4
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Depressing league table is depressing.
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Some Villa fans are insufferable cry babies when the chips are down.
Did the season finish yesterday? Have Villa been relegated? Do we just throw the towel in now?
Mayday! Mayday!
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Its not about being a better supporter Russo etc.. I know things are looking bleak but some seem to thrive when we lose..
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Some Villa fans are insufferable cry babies when the chips are down.
Did the season finish yesterday? Have Villa been relegated? Do we just throw the towel in now?
Mayday! Mayday!
Whilst i'm not sure cry babies is the word, the Randy Out brigade tend to re-surface after a few defeats.
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I know things are looking bleak but some seem to thrive when we lose..
That sort of point just isn't worth debating.
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We're in a weird position at the moment. It's highly unusual for an established PL team to have to completely rebuild in the way that we have, even promoted teams have had time to develop understandings on the pitch and establish a way of playing. There have been encouraging signs in recent weeks that the players are getting used to each other and this league, but for a team in our position to go to Man City and get the kind of luck we did is only going to produce one outcome.
I think we've shown enough to suggest that when competing on a more level paying field we can hold our own and it will be those games from now on that will determine our season.
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Some Villa fans are insufferable cry babies when the chips are down.
Did the season finish yesterday? Have Villa been relegated? Do we just throw the towel in now?
Mayday! Mayday!
Whilst i'm not sure cry babies is the word, the Randy Out brigade tend to re-surface after a few defeats.
It's not so much about Randy Out. It's more the absence of discernible strategy that's very disconcerting: we need strong leadership and some indication that there's method i nthe madness. At the moment, we are all thrashing around trying to second-guess what our future holds.
Is Lambert pursuing an agreed approach, using youngsters and hoping that they mature through the season sufficiently enough to keep us up? Does RL have a long-term plan? Or is everyone operating outside of any agreed plan and RL has simply "shut up shop"?
The lack of answers to questions like these is what is spooking me. 'Cos in the end, the answers determine what's going on pitch-wise.
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I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if the point has been made already.
In my view, the mistake was Houllier. That was the beginning of the rot. If we had got that appointment right we could be playing regular Champions League football now. If we had got in a hungry manager with good contacts on the continent we could have got more from our existing players and found a few talents on the continent. MON had reached the end of the road and the club had reached a crossroads but crucially we had the prestige to get in a top manager to take us to the next level and more prizemoney etc. Instead of setting the 'PL experience and no job' criteria we should have drawn up a list of managers and chased them. We ended up appointing somebody who never seemed to be that hungry for the job ad thought anything from 7th down was about our place in English football. That season was real struggle despite the 9th place finish. Up until April it looked very dangerous for us. It was the appointment of Houllier that sowed the seeds of doubt as to the footballing nous of the club. It was just such a bad fit and evey other week there was a new PR disaster as the club lost its way somewhat. Houllier was never a long-term appointment, it was just ridiculous.
Once he went and we very publicly got rejected by Martinez it was clear that we no longer had the prestige that we had the previous year. It was also clear that there would be no more big spending (Houllier got £30m to spend) so we were never going to get a Grade A manager. Our confidence in the board and the future of the club were rocked completely by the appointment of TSM. As my friend sais last night, maybe McLeish did a good job keeping 'you lot up'? Maybe he did.
But our plight is the fault of terrible miss-management at the top. If we stay up (i still think we will) it will be a long hard road back to mid-table security and from there to anything above eight.
Thank you Randy.
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I know things are looking bleak but some seem to thrive when we lose..
That sort of point just isn't worth debating.
Agree. Quite insulting actually.
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I'm sick of the same posters who keep saying the football is worse.. you know who you are! you never say anything positive. Lambert and the lads need support not sniping. Some of you seem to spend 24 hours on a keyboard 'supporting' . Yeah things don't look good from a far but most can see we play better football at least.
All the support in the world won't be enough to keep us up. What has the club given us to cheer about? Look at the support they get: Fulham away, Sunderland away, against United last week. Supporters need something in return for spending hard earned cash and turning up in the numbers they do.
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I know things are looking bleak but some seem to thrive when we lose..
That sort of point just isn't worth debating.
Agree. Quite insulting actually.
You've gone soft, you pair.
There has been the odd poster who only ever surfaces when times are bleak.
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I know things are looking bleak but some seem to thrive when we lose..
That sort of point just isn't worth debating.
Agree. Quite insulting actually.
You've gone soft, you pair.
There has been the odd poster who only ever surfaces when times are bleak.
Who?
Don't tell me Gregnash, he doesn't count as he's a wild card on a wind up.
I do find the suggestion of 'thriving when we lose' insulting.
I want us to be winners and nothing makes me happier when we're doing that (at least from what I can remember)
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The current Squad plainly isnt good enough or we wouldnt be where we are, if Randy doesnt splash some cash in january, i think we may have to bear the unbearable, and judging by my text inbox last night a by 4:55, unbearable is exactly what it would be.
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We're in a weird position at the moment. It's highly unusual for an established PL team to have to completely rebuild in the way that we have, even promoted teams have had time to develop understandings on the pitch and establish a way of playing. There have been encouraging signs in recent weeks that the players are getting used to each other and this league, but for a team in our position to go to Man City and get the kind of luck we did is only going to produce one outcome.
I think we've shown enough to suggest that when competing on a more level paying field we can hold our own and it will be those games from now on that will determine our season.
Agreed 100%.
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Other than the bollocks offside decision yesterday, we've competed on a level playing field all season, and have won two games. In two of the defeats we were absolutely torn apart by Everton and Southampton. We've played a third of the season now, are in the bottom three and have scored a mere ten goals and have a minus 12 goal difference, so I think it's rather clear that we haven't been holding our own. There has been the odd decent performance, but no team ever gets relegated without playing well and winning a few games, so that's hardly any comfort.
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Other than the bollocks offside decision yesterday, we've competed on a level playing field all season, and have won two games. In two of the defeats we were absolutely torn apart by Everton and Southampton. We've played a third of the season now, are in the bottom three and have scored a mere ten goals and have a minus 12 goal difference, so I think it's rather clear that we haven't been holding our own. There has been the odd decent performance, but no team ever gets relegated without playing well and winning a few games, so that's hardly any comfort.
Do you think we will go down? I am 50:50, I think January could save us if we manage to get to January on 19+ points.
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Other than the bollocks offside decision yesterday, we've competed on a level playing field all season, and have won two games. In two of the defeats we were absolutely torn apart by Everton and Southampton. We've played a third of the season now, are in the bottom three and have scored a mere ten goals and have a minus 12 goal difference, so I think it's rather clear that we haven't been holding our own. There has been the odd decent performance, but no team ever gets relegated without playing well and winning a few games, so that's hardly any comfort.
Agreed.
I remember we beat West Ham really well during our relegation season, the headline on the press was "it's vintage claret!"
We went down not long after that!
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Other than the bollocks offside decision yesterday, we've competed on a level playing field all season, and have won two games. In two of the defeats we were absolutely torn apart by Everton and Southampton. We've played a third of the season now, are in the bottom three and have scored a mere ten goals and have a minus 12 goal difference, so I think it's rather clear that we haven't been holding our own. There has been the odd decent performance, but no team ever gets relegated without playing well and winning a few games, so that's hardly any comfort.
Obviously the status after 12 matches is relegation form, as we are in the relegation zone. The question is whether we're progressing. In my opinion, we are, slightly. The start of the season was pretty abysmal. But lately, against Sunderland and Man Utd, our performances have been more encouraging. As stated earlier, the matches against Reading, QPR and Stoke will be telling. At that point, Lambert should have had enough time to find his best team, and the opposition will be of the kind where we'll need points, not just progress.
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Some Villa fans are insufferable cry babies when the chips are down.
Did the season finish yesterday? Have Villa been relegated? Do we just throw the towel in now?
Mayday! Mayday!
No, you are right, the season didn't end yesterday.
Nor does it start after we have played Arsenal, as some seem to believe......."just get these few tough games out of the way and we'll be ok...etc etc".
We are already down amongst the dead men, I'm struggling to see how we wil get away from them.
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I still think to move towards a passing game is the only way we get out of this mess. However the midfield and defence need to be more solid. We are creating chances now, but we're conceding far too many. I don't have the feeling of utter hopelessness that I had last year, I knew Mcleish would never succeed but I have hope that Lambert may.
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If Sunderland get a result today that would cap off an utter dog of a weekend.
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i think we all knew/realised that after the 3 games v UTd, City and Arsenal that there was a 99.9% chance we would be in the bottom 3 - anything v Arsenal is a bonus and then our season really has to begin after that game, lets just hope that yesterdays result and the league table dont knock the stuffing out of the team
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I still think to move towards a passing game is the only way we get out of this mess. However the midfield and defence need to be more solid. We are creating chances now, but we're conceding far too many. I don't have the feeling of utter hopelessness that I had last year, I knew Mcleish would never succeed but I have hope that Lambert may.
I agree with that. At the start of this thread, I was a bit surprised at some of the excuses put forward for TSM. Last season, we were extremely lucky to stay up. We're going to need more than luck this season and TSM's philosophy of giving up before we've taken to the pitch against certain teams is a one way ticket to the bottom of the league. Lambert is trying new things and at least giving teams a game.
Don't be surprised to see another humdinger against Arsenal. We might lose, but I'd rather see a Villa side trying to win, than trying to contain the opposition. It's far from a hopeless situation, when you're a third into the season.
As for Man City, they were just too good for us. No excuses.
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We gave up after the second goal yesterday. The young players' heads went, and there was nobody to pick them up and try and instil some fight or self belief.
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There is NO case for defending McLeish. We were very very lucky indeed last season to survive. Lambert is doing the right things now however it's going to be touch and go. Everything now points to us getting relegated this season but you never know.
It is actually easy to avoid relegation you only need to win a few games. It is possible we will do that if for nothing else than for the sake of the brave new world we are trying to put in place at VP.
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We gave up after the second goal yesterday. The young players' heads went, and there was nobody to pick them up and try and instil some fight or self belief.
Quite the opposite. There was the despicable linesman, who will spend all of his holidays in UAE, gifting Citeh a second unnecessary penalty.
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We gave up after the second goal yesterday. The young players' heads went, and there was nobody to pick them up and try and instil some fight or self belief.
Quite the opposite. There was the despicable linesman, who will spend all of his holidays in UAE, gifting Citeh a second unnecessary penalty.
For the second one, just a bit of common sense was needed. It was'nt excatly intentional handball.
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The 1st pen was clearly a shocking error but I don't really have a problem with the 2nd pen, if it had been an opposition player I'd have expected it given to us, and although a tad unfortunate I think most officials would have given a pen.
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Another comment on AM: in the transfer market, he deployed the exact opposite strategy to Lambert, signing supposedly proven Premier League quality: Given, Hutton and N'Zogbia.
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7 wins in the entire season did for McLeish.
Forget where he came from, his interpretation of attacking football or his increasingly bizarre and desperate justifications by the end.
He came to us with the reputation of being a decent guy. Yet by April/May last year he was in full on DOL mode "Just because Aston Villa won a European Cup once doesn't mean they have a divine right to finish in the top 10 of the Barclays Premier League." Inspired stuff.
When we lost to the top 4/5, their agenda was different to ours - what could we realistically expect, in other words.
But -weirdly- when we lost to teams who had spent far less than us, or had only been in the topflight for a season or two, those were not the games we should have been expecting to win either.
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BTW, If Lambert only manages 7 wins in an entire campaign -rebuilding or no- there will be calls to have him potted too.
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Another comment on AM: in the transfer market, he deployed the exact opposite strategy to Lambert, signing supposedly proven Premier League quality: Given, Hutton and N'Zogbia.
In fairness given and nzogbia were both popular signings at the time and although the length of his contract was debatable I don't think shay should be bracketed alongside the likes of Hutton.
Nzogbia has been a huge disappointment .
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Being popular signings doesn't excuse anything. None of us are the 20th best-paid football manager in the world. It's how the signings perform that matters, not what we think of them at the time.
I was chuffed when we bought CNZ, but so what? As yet he's been awful.
On balance, PL's unheralded signings look much better value.
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Why do people think we will be ok If we buy some players in January. I am sure Reading will buy some players with their rich owner and QPR worry me If craggyface ends up going there . Southampton's football has been better than ours too.
Im about 50/50 on relegation at the moment and still convinced PL will sort it , but I did not think I would say this , but we need Dunne in the team asap .
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I'm not thinking of January. We need to get a lot of points well before then if we're going to be alright, more precisely over the next four games.
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I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if the point has been made already.
In my view, the mistake was Houllier. That was the beginning of the rot. If we had got that appointment right we could be playing regular Champions League football now. If we had got in a hungry manager with good contacts on the continent we could have got more from our existing players and found a few talents on the continent. MON had reached the end of the road and the club had reached a crossroads but crucially we had the prestige to get in a top manager to take us to the next level and more prizemoney etc. Instead of setting the 'PL experience and no job' criteria we should have drawn up a list of managers and chased them. We ended up appointing somebody who never seemed to be that hungry for the job ad thought anything from 7th down was about our place in English football. That season was real struggle despite the 9th place finish. Up until April it looked very dangerous for us. It was the appointment of Houllier that sowed the seeds of doubt as to the footballing nous of the club. It was just such a bad fit and evey other week there was a new PR disaster as the club lost its way somewhat. Houllier was never a long-term appointment, it was just ridiculous.
Once he went and we very publicly got rejected by Martinez it was clear that we no longer had the prestige that we had the previous year. It was also clear that there would be no more big spending (Houllier got £30m to spend) so we were never going to get a Grade A manager. Our confidence in the board and the future of the club were rocked completely by the appointment of TSM. As my friend sais last night, maybe McLeish did a good job keeping 'you lot up'? Maybe he did.
But our plight is the fault of terrible miss-management at the top. If we stay up (i still think we will) it will be a long hard road back to mid-table security and from there to anything above eight.
Thank you Randy.
Great post.
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Except that any revisionist thinking that Mcleish did 'a good job' is simply untrue. He was diabolical.
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No need to panic yet. We've had a bad beginning to the season, no doubt, but the biggest danger at the moment is believing we are doomed. As supporters, I think we can play our bit to make sure this doesn't happen. We are in mid November, as we know from last year, it's late March and April when it will be time to worry. Last season, it took us almost the whole season to be safe. We may well do it earlier this season.
Loads of other clubs could go down: Swansea, Norwich, Stoke, Sunderland, Wigan, QPR, Southampton, Reading. Some of those are placed higher than might be expected at the moment after having bright beginnings, but I'd far rather have a good end to the season than a good beginning.
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I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if the point has been made already.
In my view, the mistake was Houllier. That was the beginning of the rot. If we had got that appointment right we could be playing regular Champions League football now. If we had got in a hungry manager with good contacts on the continent we could have got more from our existing players and found a few talents on the continent. MON had reached the end of the road and the club had reached a crossroads but crucially we had the prestige to get in a top manager to take us to the next level and more prizemoney etc. Instead of setting the 'PL experience and no job' criteria we should have drawn up a list of managers and chased them. We ended up appointing somebody who never seemed to be that hungry for the job ad thought anything from 7th down was about our place in English football. That season was real struggle despite the 9th place finish. Up until April it looked very dangerous for us. It was the appointment of Houllier that sowed the seeds of doubt as to the footballing nous of the club. It was just such a bad fit and evey other week there was a new PR disaster as the club lost its way somewhat. Houllier was never a long-term appointment, it was just ridiculous.
Once he went and we very publicly got rejected by Martinez it was clear that we no longer had the prestige that we had the previous year. It was also clear that there would be no more big spending (Houllier got £30m to spend) so we were never going to get a Grade A manager. Our confidence in the board and the future of the club were rocked completely by the appointment of TSM. As my friend sais last night, maybe McLeish did a good job keeping 'you lot up'? Maybe he did.
But our plight is the fault of terrible miss-management at the top. If we stay up (i still think we will) it will be a long hard road back to mid-table security and from there to anything above eight.
Thank you Randy.
Great post.
I don't really agree with this at all. The latter half of 2010/11 our form was top six. It was the summer of 2011 that was crucial: the combination of appointing McLeish and selling Downing. Losing Young to Man Utd was expected. Selling Downing was a big mistake even if we got a lot of money for him: he was player of the season, and selling our two of our best players instead of just one sent a terrible signal.
We could have got a grade A (ie a competent) manager in 2011. Rafa Benitez was obviously interested, and even if he wasn't the right fit (I doubt the board ever really pursued the option), it is obvious that they could have found someone better than the man who had just relegated Birmingham City.
Also, the notion that Houllier wasn't hungry is largely unfounded. He worked more hours in a week than his predeccessor did in a month. His philosophical reaction to defeat shouldn't be interpreted as defeatism.
I agree that Houllier was a poor appointment, but that was largely because he was brought in to do a three-season project but only had the health for 75 per cent of a season.
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Having won only a handful of games in the last calendar year, I'd take a good bit anywhere we can get it right now.
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Selling players is risky, but it's not impossible to carry on and be successful if the right person is in charge.
Everton have sold Rooney, Arteta, Rodwell etc and still been successful.
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I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if the point has been made already.
In my view, the mistake was Houllier. That was the beginning of the rot. If we had got that appointment right we could be playing regular Champions League football now. If we had got in a hungry manager with good contacts on the continent we could have got more from our existing players and found a few talents on the continent. MON had reached the end of the road and the club had reached a crossroads but crucially we had the prestige to get in a top manager to take us to the next level and more prizemoney etc. Instead of setting the 'PL experience and no job' criteria we should have drawn up a list of managers and chased them. We ended up appointing somebody who never seemed to be that hungry for the job ad thought anything from 7th down was about our place in English football. That season was real struggle despite the 9th place finish. Up until April it looked very dangerous for us. It was the appointment of Houllier that sowed the seeds of doubt as to the footballing nous of the club. It was just such a bad fit and evey other week there was a new PR disaster as the club lost its way somewhat. Houllier was never a long-term appointment, it was just ridiculous.
Once he went and we very publicly got rejected by Martinez it was clear that we no longer had the prestige that we had the previous year. It was also clear that there would be no more big spending (Houllier got £30m to spend) so we were never going to get a Grade A manager. Our confidence in the board and the future of the club were rocked completely by the appointment of TSM. As my friend sais last night, maybe McLeish did a good job keeping 'you lot up'? Maybe he did.
But our plight is the fault of terrible miss-management at the top. If we stay up (i still think we will) it will be a long hard road back to mid-table security and from there to anything above eight.
Thank you Randy.
Great post.
I don't really agree with this at all. The latter half of 2010/11 our form was top six. It was the summer of 2011 that was crucial: the combination of appointing McLeish and selling Downing. Losing Young to Man Utd was expected. Selling Downing was a big mistake even if we got a lot of money for him: he was player of the season, and selling our two of our best players instead of just one sent a terrible signal.
Agree 100%
In isolation, the deal made sense.
But on the back of losing Barry, Milner and Young in just under two years, it cemented our reputation as a selling club. Soon after, we were receiving barbs from Assou Ekoutto and other assorted shit-heads ("We need to keep our best players -or we'll end up like Aston Villa").
As much as the rat faced ones antics annoyed me that summer, keeping him another 12 months would have probably ensured a better goal supply to Bent. Downing could weigh in with a few goals too. Hindsight being 20/20 vision and all, but were we really better off getting (admittedly decent) money for Downing, spending half of it on N'Zog and finishing a good number of places lower in the league than the previous season- thereby forgoing a fair chunk of prize money?
The McLeish appointment was all sorts of wrong- and that too confirmed to the world we were no longer interested in competing. Or even doing a passable impression of a club that might.
That summer we were linked with a decent pedigree of manager - some even went public with their interest in the job. Last summer, the best we could realistically do was promising (but still learning on the job) candidates. If a vacancy were to occur again in the next 6-12 months -under the current constraints- the bar will probably be lower still.
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It's worth a moment's pause to look at how the Tesco bags have conducted affairs over the last three seasons.
After Di Mattteo - a bold appointment at the time, and one that worked reasonably well in hindsight (in laying down a playing style and core of footballing players) - they managed to get Hodgson on the bounce from Liverpool and then Clark from Liverpool.
Although not blessed with tons of cash to spend, they have managed to secure good managers who have had a degree of continuity in terms of play-style. They've picked up some clever purchases and blended them into a decent footballing side. They may suffer if a rash of injuries afflicts them, but you can't argue with their progress.
You have to ask: why has RL not managed to do this over the last three seasons at VP? I think our recent history is pretty galling, actually, as I've pondered it over the weekend.
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Sometimes you need a little bit of luck or help from the opposition aswell.
Sunderland imo are the worst team we've played this season and even though against Fulham they've been pretty poor but they've benefited hugely from Hangeland being an idiot and getting himself sent off.
Now think back to our game at Craven Cottage which was a pretty tight affair and could easily have finished 0-0. Fair to say we could've won that if Hangeland had been sent off in that early?
We need to get it together in these next 4 games but it would help if an opposition player could help us out by getting sent off or scoring an own goal, I don't think either has happened this season?
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It's worth a moment's pause to look at how the Tesco bags have conducted affairs over the last three seasons.
After Di Mattteo - a bold appointment at the time, and one that worked reasonably well in hindsight (in laying down a playing style and core of footballing players) - they managed to get Hodgson on the bounce from Liverpool and then Clark from Liverpool.
Although not blessed with tons of cash to spend, they have managed to secure good managers who have had a degree of continuity in terms of play-style. They've picked up some clever purchases and blended them into a decent footballing side. They may suffer if a rash of injuries afflicts them, but you can't argue with their progress.
You have to ask: why has RL not managed to do this over the last three seasons at VP? I think our recent history is pretty galling, actually, as I've pondered it over the weekend.
Good post- Albion have spent a fraction of what we have and have a much better team than us .
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When The Gnasher appears with the 'meh' and the 'face/palm' and the 'larf'; that'll be the time to worry. Until then have faith. We're not actually that bad.
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When The Gnasher appears with the 'meh' and the 'face/palm' and the 'larf'; that'll be the time to worry. Until then have faith. We're not actually that bad.
Wouldn't surprise me if he's blowing the cobwebs off his laptop as we speak.
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Sunderland result puts us in place rightly..Come on PL! You know we can do it, and I believe in you and the team! If the bags are up there then so, too, can Villa.
Strange days!
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Can we get Carlos Slim interested?
http://uk.eurosport.yahoo.com/news/liga-tycoon-slim-invests-real-oviedo-174603912.html
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FFS Sunderland winning
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FFS Sunderland winning
Away!! ffs!
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I'm sick of the same posters who keep saying the football is worse.. you know who you are! you never say anything positive. Lambert and the lads need support not sniping. Some of you seem to spend 24 hours on a keyboard 'supporting' . Yeah things don't look good from a far but most can see we play better football at least.
Just what is better football, though? To my mind, the better football is the kind that wins games. And we don't seem to be doing that very often.
The better football was the first 60 minutes against Manure last week before the predicatble comeback. It was certainly better than the equivilant fixture last season when TSM was celebrating a 1-0 defeat.
The time to judge is after Stoke. We'll have a pretty good indication then if the second half of the season will be painful or pretty painless.
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sunderland looked garbage . they were under the cosh for large parts even when fulham were down to 10 men. if they win their game in hand they'll be on 15 points tho! its been a dire weekend!
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FFS Sunderland winning
Away!! ffs!
Table looks dreadful now.
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I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if the point has been made already.
In my view, the mistake was Houllier. That was the beginning of the rot. If we had got that appointment right we could be playing regular Champions League football now. If we had got in a hungry manager with good contacts on the continent we could have got more from our existing players and found a few talents on the continent. MON had reached the end of the road and the club had reached a crossroads but crucially we had the prestige to get in a top manager to take us to the next level and more prizemoney etc. Instead of setting the 'PL experience and no job' criteria we should have drawn up a list of managers and chased them. We ended up appointing somebody who never seemed to be that hungry for the job ad thought anything from 7th down was about our place in English football. That season was real struggle despite the 9th place finish. Up until April it looked very dangerous for us. It was the appointment of Houllier that sowed the seeds of doubt as to the footballing nous of the club. It was just such a bad fit and evey other week there was a new PR disaster as the club lost its way somewhat. Houllier was never a long-term appointment, it was just ridiculous.
Once he went and we very publicly got rejected by Martinez it was clear that we no longer had the prestige that we had the previous year. It was also clear that there would be no more big spending (Houllier got £30m to spend) so we were never going to get a Grade A manager. Our confidence in the board and the future of the club were rocked completely by the appointment of TSM. As my friend sais last night, maybe McLeish did a good job keeping 'you lot up'? Maybe he did.
But our plight is the fault of terrible miss-management at the top. If we stay up (i still think we will) it will be a long hard road back to mid-table security and from there to anything above eight.
Thank you Randy.
Great post.
I don't really agree with this at all. The latter half of 2010/11 our form was top six. It was the summer of 2011 that was crucial: the combination of appointing McLeish and selling Downing. Losing Young to Man Utd was expected. Selling Downing was a big mistake even if we got a lot of money for him: he was player of the season, and selling our two of our best players instead of just one sent a terrible signal.
We could have got a grade A (ie a competent) manager in 2011. Rafa Benitez was obviously interested, and even if he wasn't the right fit (I doubt the board ever really pursued the option), it is obvious that they could have found someone better than the man who had just relegated Birmingham City.
Also, the notion that Houllier wasn't hungry is largely unfounded. He worked more hours in a week than his predeccessor did in a month. His philosophical reaction to defeat shouldn't be interpreted as defeatism.
I agree that Houllier was a poor appointment, but that was largely because he was brought in to do a three-season project but only had the health for 75 per cent of a season.
I didn't see much evidence of Hunger when Houllier was here. There was a horrible vibe at the club for most of that season. I agree our form picked up from January but there was still a lot to grumble about and talk of 'uniting to get the club over the line'. I think we could have got a better manager then and it could have transformed us. Do you not think that Houllier had a terrible habit of hanging the players in public, especially the younger ones? I was never enthused while he was our manager and felt he oversold all his achievements and singled out others for his failures. His treatment of Ginola when France didn't qualify for USA'94 was shameful.
I didn't mean to imply that I thought McLeish did a good job, he's one of the worst managers in villa history and I'd have kept Houllier or GM over getting in TSM. Wasn't trying to be revisionist about TSM's shambolic performance, just that I think we really missed a trick when MON left. After TSM we went and got our man, the man we wanted. We should have been equally ruthless in 2010 and we probably wouldn't have had such a torrid time since if we had gone about things differently then.
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I know things are looking bleak but some seem to thrive when we lose..
That sort of point just isn't worth debating.
Agree. Quite insulting actually.
You've gone soft, you pair.
There has been the odd poster who only ever surfaces when times are bleak.
Who?
Don't tell me Gregnash, he doesn't count as he's a wild card on a wind up.
I do find the suggestion of 'thriving when we lose' insulting.
I want us to be winners and nothing makes me happier when we're doing that (at least from what I can remember)
I don't dispute that for a minute mate, and it wasn't aimed at you or Risso, but given some of the utterly bizarre posters we've had on here down the years you cannot rule it out.
For example, old Malcolm hated O'Neill more than he loved the Villa.
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I know things are looking bleak but some seem to thrive when we lose..
That sort of point just isn't worth debating.
Agree. Quite insulting actually.
You've gone soft, you pair.
There has been the odd poster who only ever surfaces when times are bleak.
Who?
Don't tell me Gregnash, he doesn't count as he's a wild card on a wind up.
I do find the suggestion of 'thriving when we lose' insulting.
I want us to be winners and nothing makes me happier when we're doing that (at least from what I can remember)
I don't dispute that for a minute mate, and it wasn't aimed at you or Risso, but given some of the utterly bizarre posters we've had on here down the years you cannot rule it out.
For example, old Malcolm hated O'Neill more than he loved the Villa.
Ah Malcolm- whatever happened to that excitable gentleman?
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O'Neill left.
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I wanted Houllier gone. But if for a second I knew his replacement would be TSM I'd have given him another season as maybe Downing would've stayed in and he would've created some goals for Bent.
In any case I think his heart issues made that academic anyway.
e
I think it's fair to say by and large the board's decisions since MON left have been a shambles. Even the Houllier appointment when we had to wait for him to get some time off from the French FA before he could take charge, it was doomed from that moment really.
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Irish: I agree that 2010/11 wasn't good. We were close to the relegation zone for much of the season, and there was an obvious lack of harmony at the club. Some of it was Houllier's fault, but a lot of it was down to players accustomed to MON's lax regime rebelling against having to work for their wages.
The point I was arguing against was that the rot started with appointing Houllier. Despite all the troubles, we ended ninth, beating Arsenal and Liverpool at the end, and having signed Darren Bent on a record transfer, it wasn't obvious that we were a club on our way down. That was only apparent, to me, at least, when we sold Downing (the sale of Young was expected) and the inexplicable appointment of TSM.
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Just read first page of this thread and no more.
Here is my view, for what it counts.
Against Manyoooo we played fantastic football.
Yesterday, we were awfull, only in the second half, again.
If we have a team that can only play for 45 mins then we are doomed, destined for relegation.
Yesterday, watching 5 screens, different games on each. Albion beat Chelski,Norwich beat Manyooo, Pool beat Wigan and we get thrashed out of sight against Citeh. Somebody, please, tell me what the fuck is going on with our club because i am really starting to doubt our ambition and expectation.
Ladies and gents, we are in the shit now, with no sign of things getting better soon. Yes,we have a bad December, but for fucksake can we actually win a game this month ? Arsenal next, at home. FFS. Where are we going to be when it comes to the crunch ? I am now, seriously worried about our future in the prem. I am on the side of Fin Feds Dad, serious reservaions about everything, and this makes me very sad, as a Villa fan. To see us last season, suffering and negative. This season, suffering and believing in a messiah. Is it going to happen ?
I think personaly, that we are going to struggle to stay up this season, and again ,i am sad. We are Villa, and always will be. I just cannot see a way out at the moment. Good young squad, but it is going to be like this all saeson. Iam a very sad Villa fan today. ALWAYS UTV.
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Irish: I agree that 2010/11 wasn't good. We were close to the relegation zone for much of the season, and there was an obvious lack of harmony at the club. Some of it was Houllier's fault, but a lot of it was down to players accustomed to MON's lax regime rebelling against having to work for their wages.
The point I was arguing against was that the rot started with appointing Houllier. Despite all the troubles, we ended ninth, beating Arsenal and Liverpool at the end, and having signed Darren Bent on a record transfer, it wasn't obvious that we were a club on our way down. That was only apparent, to me, at least, when we sold Downing (the sale of Young was expected) and the inexplicable appointment of TSM.
Fair point. But I'm guessing you would agree that had we shown more ambition then we could have got a manager to take us from sixth to the next level? Actually it has just occurred to me, I wonder would Downing have stayed if Houllier had? McLeish arriving prob sent the same message to the players as it did to us fans.
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I'm subscribing to the view that Houllier was largely right in his apparent assessment that there was little to build on with what MON left behind. MON's trick was to get the best out of a bunch of (with a few exceptions) average players. To finish higher than sixth we needed better players, or at least players with more potential prepared to diet and practice to make the most of their careers -- and with that a change of culture at the club. A complete overhaul and not minor tinkering was needed to progress from sixth.
If we, following Houllier's departure, had appointed someone with similar ideas, with a similar standing in the game (in European football, Houllier isn't a nobody), similar contacts, better success rate in the transfer market (his record at Liverpool was mixed) and maybe less intransigent -- in short, someone who would, by and large, had continued what Houllier started, we would have been a better shape than we are now. Instead we went back to square one: appointing someone who perhaps was a nicer man than MON, but who as a manager, had the same limitations.
Even though it was a squad that finished sixth last season, it was also a squad that looked as if it had barely done any pre-season work, a squad that had lost its best and most important player, and a squad where the most influential members perhaps weren't the most professional. Add to that the board had to find a manager just at the start of the season (not the ideal time), I can forgive them for opting for Houllier. It was a reasonable gamble that didn't pay off. But at the time it didn't look like the worst possible appointment at all. McLeish, on the other hand, was pretty close to that.
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I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if the point has been made already.
In my view, the mistake was Houllier. That was the beginning of the rot. If we had got that appointment right we could be playing regular Champions League football now. If we had got in a hungry manager with good contacts on the continent we could have got more from our existing players and found a few talents on the continent. MON had reached the end of the road and the club had reached a crossroads but crucially we had the prestige to get in a top manager to take us to the next level and more prizemoney etc. Instead of setting the 'PL experience and no job' criteria we should have drawn up a list of managers and chased them. We ended up appointing somebody who never seemed to be that hungry for the job ad thought anything from 7th down was about our place in English football. That season was real struggle despite the 9th place finish. Up until April it looked very dangerous for us. It was the appointment of Houllier that sowed the seeds of doubt as to the footballing nous of the club. It was just such a bad fit and evey other week there was a new PR disaster as the club lost its way somewhat. Houllier was never a long-term appointment, it was just ridiculous.
Once he went and we very publicly got rejected by Martinez it was clear that we no longer had the prestige that we had the previous year. It was also clear that there would be no more big spending (Houllier got £30m to spend) so we were never going to get a Grade A manager. Our confidence in the board and the future of the club were rocked completely by the appointment of TSM. As my friend sais last night, maybe McLeish did a good job keeping 'you lot up'? Maybe he did.
But our plight is the fault of terrible miss-management at the top. If we stay up (i still think we will) it will be a long hard road back to mid-table security and from there to anything above eight.
Thank you Randy.
Great post.
I haven't read the whole thread so apologies if the point has been made already.
In my view, the mistake was Houllier. That was the beginning of the rot. If we had got that appointment right we could be playing regular Champions League football now. If we had got in a hungry manager with good contacts on the continent we could have got more from our existing players and found a few talents on the continent. MON had reached the end of the road and the club had reached a crossroads but crucially we had the prestige to get in a top manager to take us to the next level and more prizemoney etc. Instead of setting the 'PL experience and no job' criteria we should have drawn up a list of managers and chased them. We ended up appointing somebody who never seemed to be that hungry for the job ad thought anything from 7th down was about our place in English football. That season was real struggle despite the 9th place finish. Up until April it looked very dangerous for us. It was the appointment of Houllier that sowed the seeds of doubt as to the footballing nous of the club. It was just such a bad fit and evey other week there was a new PR disaster as the club lost its way somewhat. Houllier was never a long-term appointment, it was just ridiculous.
Once he went and we very publicly got rejected by Martinez it was clear that we no longer had the prestige that we had the previous year. It was also clear that there would be no more big spending (Houllier got £30m to spend) so we were never going to get a Grade A manager. Our confidence in the board and the future of the club were rocked completely by the appointment of TSM. As my friend sais last night, maybe McLeish did a good job keeping 'you lot up'? Maybe he did.
But our plight is the fault of terrible miss-management at the top. If we stay up (i still think we will) it will be a long hard road back to mid-table security and from there to anything above eight.
Thank you Randy.
Great post.
I don't really agree with this at all. The latter half of 2010/11 our form was top six. It was the summer of 2011 that was crucial: the combination of appointing McLeish and selling Downing. Losing Young to Man Utd was expected. Selling Downing was a big mistake even if we got a lot of money for him: he was player of the season, and selling our two of our best players instead of just one sent a terrible signal.
We could have got a grade A (ie a competent) manager in 2011. Rafa Benitez was obviously interested, and even if he wasn't the right fit (I doubt the board ever really pursued the option), it is obvious that they could have found someone better than the man who had just relegated Birmingham City.
Also, the notion that Houllier wasn't hungry is largely unfounded. He worked more hours in a week than his predeccessor did in a month. His philosophical reaction to defeat shouldn't be interpreted as defeatism.
I agree that Houllier was a poor appointment, but that was largely because he was brought in to do a three-season project but only had the health for 75 per cent of a season.
Oneil left because the money dried up and he left us with a very average squad on huge wages that no other club wanted. Any top manager thinking of coming to Villa would have wanted 50 mil to spend. Lerner decided to pull the pin on big spending and we have gone backwards ever since.
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At least we're top of the footy fan quote fail table! ;)
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If the question is, might we have been better off under TSM? the answer is a resounding NO.
2 Reasons.
1. The negativity at VP was for me on the occaisions I went at an all time low, you could feel the energy being sucked out of the place.
2. His brand of football I called it "Surrender Football" was limiting the ability of the team and was adding to 1 above.
That is not to say that I dont have some sypathy for the view that his job as he saw it was to survive and give him that one bit of credit, we are still a PL club. Not sure if we will be next season though.
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To whoever posted the "We will end up just making up the numbers" - no point complaining about a FACT of Premier League life - we are accompanied by another 15 teams who will never win the League - EVER.
And there are probably only 7 teams who will fill the top 4 places too.....Newcastle nearly managed it last season - and they don't look like they have progressed do they?
I KNOW that I will never see Villa win the League (again) in my lifetime - or my son's
That doesn't mean we can't achieve some limited success in the future.
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To whoever posted the "We will end up just making up the numbers" - no point complaining about a FACT of Premier League life - we are accompanied by another 15 teams who will never win the League - EVER.
And there are probably only 7 teams who will fill the top 4 places too.....Newcastle nearly managed it last season - and they don't look like they have progressed do they?
I KNOW that I will never see Villa win the League (again) in my lifetime - or my son's
That doesn't mean we can't achieve some limited success in the future.
Harsh comment but I tend to agree given present circs. How old is Randy? Not in his lifetime or his son's either!!
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I look at the table and it's worrying. The teams above us, maybe Reading aside, all have the ability to go on a good run. Martinez has pulled out results when called upon at Wigan and could easily do that again. O Neills a cock but he's always had the ability to have a strong run of results with his teams. He can build momentum. I don't think Sunderland will be struggling in 3 months time to be honest. Stoke have the ability to unsettle and pick up surprise results. I think as fuck ugly as their brand of football is, I don't foresee them getting relegated on it unless some of their better players move on. Adam is settling quite well now too and Crouch will grab a few goals too.
My biggest worry is probably QPR. They're a joke of a club but there's money there. They have some decent players. If they sack Hughes and get in a manager capable of bringing the squad together and getting the best out of them, they could go on a run.
As for making up the numbers. It is true. But a minimum expectation for this club should be that we're making up the numbers in the top 10. Unfortunately we've sold and bought so shabbily in recent years and had a firesale mentalitiy, that's no left us with a piss poor squad. Most of our first 11 are the sort of players who should be second choices, even third at this level. Our better players are either too inconsistent, don't care, aren't being used right or just struggling for form.
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I detest what football has become. I detest some of the things I read when I type Aston Villa into google news.
Fucktards.
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Just a quick pause for thought, if we are to survive this season it may be worth having a look at how the clubs in a similar position to us got on in the past few season:
2009/10 Season - October 24th Weekend - Bottom 3
Hull [Relegated]
West Ham [Survived but see next season] [Burnley Relegated]
Portsmouth [Relegated]
2010/11 Season - October 24th Weekend - Bottom 3
Liverpool [Survived]
Wolves [Survived on the last day] [Blues relegated]
West Ham [Relegated]
2011/12 Season - October 24th Weekend - Bottom 3
Bolton [Relegated]
Wigan [Survived] [Wolves Relegated]
Blackburn [Relegated]
The stats suggest that over the past three seasons 55% of those teams in the bottom three at this point of the season get relegated.
And two of those who survived West Ham and Wolves, both got relegated soon after.
Thats 77% of those teams in or around the bottom three at this time of the year get relegated that season or very soon after
So I think we should all be concerned about what is happening now
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I'm a bit worried about this season, but if we survive I'd have no worries at all about next.
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I am an optimist by nature, but I'm a bit worried about us this season. I think it's the goal difference as much as anything.
Buying so many young players from the lower leagues in the summer was a gamble. Fingers-crossed it pays off. A good win against the Arsenal would do us a world of good at the moment.
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I am always optimistic about Villa aswell. I know it is early in the season and i am still optimistic, just very worried about our current position in the table.
It makes me very uncomfortable to see us down there, even more uncomfortable to see those Tesco bag wearing tossers 4th in the league. Unbelievable.
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I still think we will get out of it we just need a couple of result's then we will be ok.
Agreed.
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I still think we will get out of it we just need a couple of result's then we will be ok.
Agreed.
yep, its that simple.
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I still think we will get out of it we just need a couple of result's then we will be ok.
Agreed.
Getting them however, may be a major problem :-\
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Perhaps TSM accepted that the constraints placed upon him by the board and the owner made attractive football impossible and he just got us to hunker down and survive and we made it - just.
I supported this viewpoint all along. McLeish's season at Villa will be better judged next May, rather than last.
I do like Lambert and I think he'll ultimately do well for us but the forthcoming Reading and QPR games are going to be huge.
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I'm a bit worried about this season, but if we survive I'd have no worries at all about next.
Trouble is, most of us were thinking that last season!!
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This year is about a manager trying to get his team to do something we all want them to do - play decent football - and in terms of points, thus far, he is failing.
Last year was about a manager getting his team to do something none of us wanted them to do - play defensive football - and in terms of points, he failed.
There is a world of difference between those two situations, and I know which one I will be more supportive and patient with.
I've seen plenty of really shit Villa sides. I still remember 86-7 like it was yesterday, it was that depressingly stamped into my mind. However, I can't remember a season that left me not ever wanting to watch my side again as much as last year did.
I also have never felt so repeatedly embarassed of my club as I did last year. Week after week, reading in the press about how disgracefully unambitious we were.
I can put up with losing, but not that.
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Last year was about a manager getting his team to do something none of us wanted them to do - play defensive football - and in terms of points, he failed.
Did he fail though? As pittiful our points total was it was enough to stay up.
As I've said, McLeish should be judged at the end of this season, not last.
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Last year was about a manager getting his team to do something none of us wanted them to do - play defensive football - and in terms of points, he failed.
Did he fail though? As pittiful our points total was it was enough to stay up.
As I've said, McLeish should be judged at the end of this season, not last.
I don't think our points finish last season was really acceptable, even though we did stay up. I also wonder how much damage we did to the club in the course of last season, it was so horrendous to watch.
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BDE: So he should have got another year?
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I'm also a bit worried about the teams around us being able to find some form. My mate's a QPR fan and reckons they've been playing really well this season without getting the results. They've got Man U up next and then a few games including ours that they will hope to get some points from. After that they have some tough games in late December/Jan. If they get a few points in their next few games I would expect them to be ok, they do have some decent players and a decent amount of money.
We really need to make sure we get some points on the board ourselves in the next few games because I don't think we'll be able to buy our way out of trouble in January. Who would come?
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I'm also a bit worried about the teams around us being able to find some form. My mate's a QPR fan and reckons they've been playing really well this season without getting the results.
In fairness, there have been a few matches this season where you could say that about us, too.
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This year is about a manager trying to get his team to do something we all want them to do - play decent football - and in terms of points, thus far, he is failing.
Last year was about a manager getting his team to do something none of us wanted them to do - play defensive football - and in terms of points, he failed.
There is a world of difference between those two situations, and I know which one I will be more supportive and patient with.
I've seen plenty of really shit Villa sides. I still remember 86-7 like it was yesterday, it was that depressingly stamped into my mind. However, I can't remember a season that left me not ever wanting to watch my side again as much as last year did.
I also have never felt so repeatedly embarassed of my club as I did last year. Week after week, reading in the press about how disgracefully unambitious we were.
I can put up with losing, but not that.
The thing is, Lambert is hardly Guardiola is he? Norwich's football last season was functional, but certainly not spectacular, and Lambert seems to be getting away wih poor results simply because he isn't McLeish. Even Mark Hughes tries to play better football than McLeish, so does just about every manager in the league.
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The thing is, Lambert is hardly Guardiola is he? Norwich's football last season was functional, but certainly not spectacular, and Lambert seems to be getting away wih poor results simply because he isn't McLeish. Even Mark Hughes tries to play better football than McLeish, so does just about every manager in the league.
No, he's not Guardiola, you're right there, but he is compared to McLeish. We've played more decent football this season so far than in the entirety of last.
Nobody is particularly happy with the way things are at the moment, but beyond being angry for the sake of it, what are the ultimate options available to us? What should we do?
Sack the manager? Get some quality in in January? Start getting behind the team more? Start booing them to show how unhappy we are?
Serious question - what should we do?
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BDE: So he should have got another year?
I can't bring myself to say that. I was as depressed as everybody watching Villa last season but I do think McLeish did as much as Lerner could have asked having had to sell his most creative players.
I do appreciate what Lambert is trying to do, and there are positive signs at times but we've lost games this season we probably wouldn't have lost last season.
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Find that Orange spot?
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The thing is, Lambert is hardly Guardiola is he? Norwich's football last season was functional, but certainly not spectacular, and Lambert seems to be getting away wih poor results simply because he isn't McLeish. Even Mark Hughes tries to play better football than McLeish, so does just about every manager in the league.
No, he's not Guardiola, you're right there, but he is compared to McLeish. We've played more decent football this season so far than in the entirety of last.
Nobody is particularly happy with the way things are at the moment, but beyond being angry for the sake of it, what are the ultimate options available to us? What should we do?
Sack the manager? Get some quality in in January? Start getting behind the team more? Start booing them to show how unhappy we are?
Serious question - what should we do?
I think we should all face up to the fact that we are looking at past history about a 50/50 bet for relegation [And I include the board more than us in facing up to it]
We need to encourage the board to invest heavily in January in order to keep us up, we direct hardly any flak toward the chairman, imagine the vitriol and bile we would be speewing if Ellis was still in charge and we were in the situation we are in!!!!!!
Perhaps some joined up action to change the boards position? I dont know how successful it would be but I think thats our best avenue
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This year is about a manager trying to get his team to do something we all want them to do - play decent football - and in terms of points, thus far, he is failing.
Last year was about a manager getting his team to do something none of us wanted them to do - play defensive football - and in terms of points, he failed.
There is a world of difference between those two situations, and I know which one I will be more supportive and patient with.
I've seen plenty of really shit Villa sides. I still remember 86-7 like it was yesterday, it was that depressingly stamped into my mind. However, I can't remember a season that left me not ever wanting to watch my side again as much as last year did.
I also have never felt so repeatedly embarassed of my club as I did last year. Week after week, reading in the press about how disgracefully unambitious we were.
I can put up with losing, but not that.
Exactly my thoughts. It's the difference between hope and utter despair.
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The thing is, Lambert is hardly Guardiola is he? Norwich's football last season was functional, but certainly not spectacular, and Lambert seems to be getting away wih poor results simply because he isn't McLeish. Even Mark Hughes tries to play better football than McLeish, so does just about every manager in the league.
No, he's not Guardiola, you're right there, but he is compared to McLeish. We've played more decent football this season so far than in the entirety of last.
Nobody is particularly happy with the way things are at the moment, but beyond being angry for the sake of it, what are the ultimate options available to us? What should we do?
Sack the manager? Get some quality in in January? Start getting behind the team more? Start booing them to show how unhappy we are?
Serious question - what should we do?
Dig out the road maps of Watford and Barnsley.
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Perhaps some joined up action to change the boards position? I dont know how successful it would be but I think thats our best avenue
Like what, though?
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I'm also a bit worried about the teams around us being able to find some form. My mate's a QPR fan and reckons they've been playing really well this season without getting the results.
In fairness, there have been a few matches this season where you could say that about us, too.
He might be judging his team a bit more generously than I would so it's hard to compare, but generally I think we are where we deserve to be so far. I can't think of too many games where we have got less than I thought we deserved. Maybe last weeks game we could have got a point, probably the same against Fulham.
Don't get me wrong, I'm not trying to be negative, I think we have shown signs of improvement this season. Even in the first half on Saturday I thought we showed some promise. We may be capable of getting a few decent results and then with the pressure off we might be ok, but it's a bit worrying that although I don't think we have been under performing we are still where we are. We aren't really waiting on any injured players to come to the rescue either. Dunne maybe, but it probably won't be that much of a transformation.
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The thing is, Lambert is hardly Guardiola is he? Norwich's football last season was functional, but certainly not spectacular, and Lambert seems to be getting away wih poor results simply because he isn't McLeish. Even Mark Hughes tries to play better football than McLeish, so does just about every manager in the league.
No, he's not Guardiola, you're right there, but he is compared to McLeish. We've played more decent football this season so far than in the entirety of last.
Nobody is particularly happy with the way things are at the moment, but beyond being angry for the sake of it, what are the ultimate options available to us? What should we do?
Sack the manager? Get some quality in in January? Start getting behind the team more? Start booing them to show how unhappy we are?
Serious question - what should we do?
The Board have got to give Lambert the financial backing we need. Otherwise, Lambert's just being hungout to dry. The difference between the scenario from last season is we made the boards life easy for them becasue we didnt like TSM.
If the Board don't back Lambert the knives will seriously be out for Lerner as it's so apparant we need funding.
We're playing much better football than last season and we are at least showing a willingness and commitment. This wasnt there last season.
From a supporters point of view, we need to concentrate our efforts on getting behind the team. A Full vibrant crowd is only going to encourage the team.
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A couple of wins will not make it okay. We need a couple of wins followed by some better form. No point dragging yourself clear only to sink back into the mire. Reading got a great result against Everton but I can't see them putting together a run as they're too brittle. Sunderland could go either way - terrible against us, better yesterday (though not great). Southampton are one of those sides too, and I can't imagine Norwich, Stoke or even Swansea being safe until close to the end of the season. What we need is to get clear soon and stay clear. If we've a buffer by January we'll stay clear.
One thing I think is that you'll be able to spot the relegated teams a mile off by mid-season. It'll be the bottom three playing catch-up.
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A couple of wins will not make it okay. We need a couple of wins followed by some better form. No point dragging yourself clear only to sink back into the mire. Reading got a great result against Everton but I can't see them putting together a run as they're too brittle. Sunderland could go either way - terrible against us, better yesterday (though not great). Southampton are one of those sides too, and I can't imagine Norwich, Stoke or even Swansea being safe until close to the end of the season. What we need is to get clear soon and stay clear. If we've a buffer by January we'll stay clear.
One thing I think is that you'll be able to spot the relegated teams a mile off by mid-season. It'll be the bottom three playing catch-up.
I think we're in for a season of struggle with Saints, Reading and Wigan. Sunderland will come good as they are showing signs of doing. Norwich will be OK as they seem to be getting more and more confident and have a decent defence.
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A couple of wins will not make it okay. We need a couple of wins followed by some better form. No point dragging yourself clear only to sink back into the mire. Reading got a great result against Everton but I can't see them putting together a run as they're too brittle. Sunderland could go either way - terrible against us, better yesterday (though not great). Southampton are one of those sides too, and I can't imagine Norwich, Stoke or even Swansea being safe until close to the end of the season. What we need is to get clear soon and stay clear. If we've a buffer by January we'll stay clear.
One thing I think is that you'll be able to spot the relegated teams a mile off by mid-season. It'll be the bottom three playing catch-up.
I think we're in for a season of struggle with Saints, Reading and Wigan. Sunderland will come good as they are showing signs of doing. Norwich will be OK as they seem to be getting more and more confident and have a decent defence.
We,d been showing signs of coming good.We've just got no bloody consistancy and are incredibly brittle.We desperately need some experienced heads in the side
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A couple of wins will not make it okay. We need a couple of wins followed by some better form. No point dragging yourself clear only to sink back into the mire. Reading got a great result against Everton but I can't see them putting together a run as they're too brittle. Sunderland could go either way - terrible against us, better yesterday (though not great). Southampton are one of those sides too, and I can't imagine Norwich, Stoke or even Swansea being safe until close to the end of the season. What we need is to get clear soon and stay clear. If we've a buffer by January we'll stay clear.
One thing I think is that you'll be able to spot the relegated teams a mile off by mid-season. It'll be the bottom three playing catch-up.
I think we're in for a season of struggle with Saints, Reading and Wigan. Sunderland will come good as they are showing signs of doing. Norwich will be OK as they seem to be getting more and more confident and have a decent defence.
Sunderland beat Fulham, but Fulham were down to ten men. They (Sunderland) didn't look too good when we beat them recently, so where are these signs of them coming good which go beyond where we were three weeks ago?
I don't understand the logic (talking generally, not you) whereby other teams are about to spring into action when they've largely looked as poor as we have.
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One area where PL has not improved upon TSM is in defending set pieces and especially corners. At least three of those have recently cost us up to four points - against Fulham and Norwich from corners, and Man Yoo from a free kick. We need to do what Norwich have done and tighten it up defensively. They got only 3 points from their first 7 games and shipped 5 against Fulham and Liverpool, and 4 at Chelsea. Since then they've only conceded 1 Premier League goal in five games (against us of all teams), which has helped them to beat Man Yoo, Arsenal and Stoke and pick up 11 from 15. They've obviously worked on something in training.
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A couple of wins will not make it okay. We need a couple of wins followed by some better form. No point dragging yourself clear only to sink back into the mire. Reading got a great result against Everton but I can't see them putting together a run as they're too brittle. Sunderland could go either way - terrible against us, better yesterday (though not great). Southampton are one of those sides too, and I can't imagine Norwich, Stoke or even Swansea being safe until close to the end of the season. What we need is to get clear soon and stay clear. If we've a buffer by January we'll stay clear.
One thing I think is that you'll be able to spot the relegated teams a mile off by mid-season. It'll be the bottom three playing catch-up.
I think we're in for a season of struggle with Saints, Reading and Wigan. Sunderland will come good as they are showing signs of doing. Norwich will be OK as they seem to be getting more and more confident and have a decent defence.
Sunderland beat Fulham, but Fulham were down to ten men. They (Sunderland) didn't look too good when we beat them recently, so where are these signs of them coming good which go beyond where we were three weeks ago?
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They(apparently) were very unfortunate against Everton and should have been 3-0 up at half time,so they are creating chances now.They have one of the best defensive records in the league
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A couple of wins will not make it okay. We need a couple of wins followed by some better form. No point dragging yourself clear only to sink back into the mire. Reading got a great result against Everton but I can't see them putting together a run as they're too brittle. Sunderland could go either way - terrible against us, better yesterday (though not great). Southampton are one of those sides too, and I can't imagine Norwich, Stoke or even Swansea being safe until close to the end of the season. What we need is to get clear soon and stay clear. If we've a buffer by January we'll stay clear.
One thing I think is that you'll be able to spot the relegated teams a mile off by mid-season. It'll be the bottom three playing catch-up.
I think we're in for a season of struggle with Saints, Reading and Wigan. Sunderland will come good as they are showing signs of doing. Norwich will be OK as they seem to be getting more and more confident and have a decent defence.
Sunderland beat Fulham, but Fulham were down to ten men. They (Sunderland) didn't look too good when we beat them recently, so where are these signs of them coming good which go beyond where we were three weeks ago?
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They(apparently) were very unfortunate against Everton and should have been 3-0 up at half time,so they are creating chances now.They have one of the best defensive records in the league
If you take a look at the main Sunderland forum prior to last week, you'll see thread after thread lamenting just how shit they were.
This is the club that managed 7 shots on goal across 9 games.
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I feel very optimistic and don't believe we've got anything to worry about. We've had a few bad breaks this season, but they will turn around for us. With the 3 point system a few good games and it will all look a lot different.
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I agree the defending needs to improve!
I remember the almost overwhelming feeling earlier this season was that it was going to be a case of ups and downs. Nothing has really changed, other than there being a few too many downs so far. But with as inexperienced a side as we have, I think it was always going to be a case of the ups getting more frequent as we went along and learned from our mistakes.
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A couple of wins will not make it okay. We need a couple of wins followed by some better form. No point dragging yourself clear only to sink back into the mire. Reading got a great result against Everton but I can't see them putting together a run as they're too brittle. Sunderland could go either way - terrible against us, better yesterday (though not great). Southampton are one of those sides too, and I can't imagine Norwich, Stoke or even Swansea being safe until close to the end of the season. What we need is to get clear soon and stay clear. If we've a buffer by January we'll stay clear.
One thing I think is that you'll be able to spot the relegated teams a mile off by mid-season. It'll be the bottom three playing catch-up.
I think we're in for a season of struggle with Saints, Reading and Wigan. Sunderland will come good as they are showing signs of doing. Norwich will be OK as they seem to be getting more and more confident and have a decent defence.
Sunderland beat Fulham, but Fulham were down to ten men. They (Sunderland) didn't look too good when we beat them recently, so where are these signs of them coming good which go beyond where we were three weeks ago?
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They(apparently) were very unfortunate against Everton and should have been 3-0 up at half time,so they are creating chances now.They have one of the best defensive records in the league
If you take a look at the main Sunderland forum prior to last week, you'll see thread after thread lamenting just how shit they were.
This is the club that managed 7 shots on goal across 9 games.
I haven't looked but I bet the forum makes different reading today.I just would't be surprised if thet put tugether a string of results now.MO'N has it in him to do that unfortunately
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A couple of wins will not make it okay. We need a couple of wins followed by some better form. No point dragging yourself clear only to sink back into the mire. Reading got a great result against Everton but I can't see them putting together a run as they're too brittle. Sunderland could go either way - terrible against us, better yesterday (though not great). Southampton are one of those sides too, and I can't imagine Norwich, Stoke or even Swansea being safe until close to the end of the season. What we need is to get clear soon and stay clear. If we've a buffer by January we'll stay clear.
One thing I think is that you'll be able to spot the relegated teams a mile off by mid-season. It'll be the bottom three playing catch-up.
I think we're in for a season of struggle with Saints, Reading and Wigan. Sunderland will come good as they are showing signs of doing. Norwich will be OK as they seem to be getting more and more confident and have a decent defence.
Sunderland beat Fulham, but Fulham were down to ten men. They (Sunderland) didn't look too good when we beat them recently, so where are these signs of them coming good which go beyond where we were three weeks ago?
.
They(apparently) were very unfortunate against Everton and should have been 3-0 up at half time,so they are creating chances now.They have one of the best defensive records in the league
If you take a look at the main Sunderland forum prior to last week, you'll see thread after thread lamenting just how shit they were.
This is the club that managed 7 shots on goal across 9 games.
I haven't looked but I bet the forum makes different reading today.I just would't be surprised if thet put tugether a string of results now.MO'N has it in him to do that unfortunately
Like this place did after we beat Sunderland?
And even after we lost to Man United? Which, lest we forget, was only a week ago.
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What does worry me is that we dont seem to have much luck this season, saturday a perfect example. Its almost as if we used all our good luck in stopping up last season when we relied on others failures in the end. On the plus side 7 of our first 12 games have been away from home so it was always going to be difficult. With 3 of our next 4 games at home maybe we can string a bit of form together, and after boxing day the fixtures look a little kinder to us, so i dont think its time for desperation just yet.
I would be happy with a boring 0-0 on against Arsenal, it might install confidence in our very brittle defence and give us a platform to build on. What has to improve though is our defending especially at set peices, we are only going 1 way if that isnt sorted soon.
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A couple of wins will not make it okay. We need a couple of wins followed by some better form. No point dragging yourself clear only to sink back into the mire. Reading got a great result against Everton but I can't see them putting together a run as they're too brittle. Sunderland could go either way - terrible against us, better yesterday (though not great). Southampton are one of those sides too, and I can't imagine Norwich, Stoke or even Swansea being safe until close to the end of the season. What we need is to get clear soon and stay clear. If we've a buffer by January we'll stay clear.
One thing I think is that you'll be able to spot the relegated teams a mile off by mid-season. It'll be the bottom three playing catch-up.
I think we're in for a season of struggle with Saints, Reading and Wigan. Sunderland will come good as they are showing signs of doing. Norwich will be OK as they seem to be getting more and more confident and have a decent defence.
I take it you think QPR will also be OK once they've got rid of Hughes?
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Like this place did after we beat Sunderland?
And even after we lost to Man United? Which, lest we forget, was only a week ago.
After the Man U performance we had lots of people saying the usual "if we play like that every week.....". As I said at the time, it never, ever works out like that.
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Like this place did after we beat Sunderland?
And even after we lost to Man United? Which, lest we forget, was only a week ago.
After the Man U performance we had lots of people saying the usual "if we play like that every week.....". As I said at the time, it never, ever works out like that.
I hate that cliche. If we throw away a 2-0 lead at home like that every week we will be relegated. No getting away from that.
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As I've said, McLeish should be judged at the end of this season, not last.
I don't get this at all.
The football under TSM was appalling; the record speaks for itself (see below).
We are not doing very well at the moment but to suggest that in some way TSM's season should be put into any sort of comparative context seems a little crazy to me.
Even if we take the drop (after 2 seasons of narrowly avoiding it) I'll feel that we will have made some sort of progress ... perverse though that may sound right now.
The own-goal that RL made was in not following through with the GHou / GMac strategy: I suppose he got scared that we would be offloading lots of expensive mistakes from MON and would then have had to spend more to rebuild. The reality is that spending in 2011 to bring in the likes of Cabaye would have been better financially than the 'hit' we took last season on expensive flops and reduced income.
McLeish:
- 2 relegations from four seasons (and dicing with it last season).
- His three outfield-player purchases (including Jenas) failed to ignite the team, particularly N’Zogbia of whom many had high hopes.
The season:
- Win ratio of 18.5% for the EPL season.
- Worst points haul since 1986-7.
- Highest number of draws in the division: 33% more than the next team (Sunderland).
- Highest number of draws in a Villa season since 1975-6.
- Lowest number of goals-scored in the bottom 6 clubs (and only surpassed by Stoke in the whole division).
- Lowest number of goals scored in a Villa season since 1969-70.
- Worst record in the league for losing from winning positions – 22 points lost.
- Conceded more from set pieces than any other team.
- The only EPL team not to score from a corner all season.
- Villa's worst-ever league home record.
- VP crowds down by 9% this season.
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Ok so 2 home games in 4 days. An opportunity to get out of the bottom 3. I think we need a minimum of 4 points. However if we can somehow win on Saturday we MUST follow that up with another win.