Bent - Ireland deserves 'hole' role

[Mazrim]

The fans voted him player of the year.

[PeterWithesShin]

Out of interest, how come we have to forget the last 2 seasons with Ireland but not with Warnock, Hutton and so on? Surely it should be a case of everyone gets a clean slate or we judge all players on their performances of the last 2 years.

Ireland was our player of the year last year.

Steven Davis was player of the year in 05/06 should we have built a side around him the following season?
Being player of the year in a very poor Villa side is hardly the biggest endorsement around.

However that misses my point. Why do some players get more time and leeway than others. Ireland, Delph, Bannan etc all should have more time and be given a fresh start. As should Makoun for example.
Yet many (and possibly some of the same folks) decided Bradley for example wasn't good enough after 100 minutes of first team football.

I'm not picking on Ireland per se (i'd definitely give him another season), just using him as the example of my point. If age (Warnock) is a factor for not giving them more time to get their form, then how come Bradley who is younger than Ireland was written off?

[tomd2103]

The fans voted him player of the year.

“The online vote for Villa supporters player was managed slightly differently this year. Rather than one end of season vote, as per previous seasons, a man of the match was voted for by supporters after every game (The man of the match vote takes place on the lions club website but is promoted through the OS and our social media channels). The winner of the supporters player (Terrace Trophy) was the player who accumulated the most man of the match votes/points across the entire season".

[Mazrim]

Yeah... the fans voted for him. For what its worth I think the way its done (after each match) is a more accurate representation as things are easily forgotten (or fabricated) when the smoke clears after the season is finished.



PeterWitheShin, I have already said numerous times that being player of the season last year was nothing special.
However, you're comparing players like Warnock, who has been rubbish for years against a player like Ireland who has been a top player and is improving here. That doesnt compare with Davis who was and remains a bloody average player who was voted our player of the season in a dreadful team. I didn't aggree with that award either. A few nice goals hid his limitations in my opinion.

But certain players get more leeway because they have more to offer, because the hope that they will perform to their best is a far more enticing prospect than jobbing players who continue to let us down and have and never will amount to much.

For what it's worth, I wanted to keep Bradley and agree he had hardly any chance here to prove himself.
Players like Hutton and Warnock have had enough time and chances.

[PeterWithesShin]

I know you have said that about player of the year Mazrim. My comments on that were in reply to Hartman who gave only that as a reason to persevere with him.

For what's it worth, I will repeat, i'm not anti Ireland. Or pro Warnock etc. Just curious why we as fans (and again, i've done it myself) write some players off too quickly and yet are prepared to stick with others (perhaps for too long).

I'll try another way, and this is not aimed at anyone just an example, so to hopefully make it a better analogy, forget Warnock due to age and go with 2 players with potential.
Why would person ABC be strongly in favour of giving Ireland more time but want to bin Delph? Surely logic should be bin both or give both a chance?

[peter w]

Out of interest, how come we have to forget the last 2 seasons with Ireland but not with Warnock, Hutton and so on? Surely it should be a case of everyone gets a clean slate or we judge all players on their performances of the last 2 years.

A fair comment but I think the answer is fairly obvious to me. In a season where we were overly defensive, Ireland was still the player of the season (not much to crow about I know), whereas Hutton and Warnock were liabilities.
Also, Ireland is entering his prime and has shown he can be a top player in this league if properly utilised. It's also a lot harder for us to get a player like Ireland whereas players better than Warnock and Hutton shouldn't be too much of a stretch.

I'm not really interested in scapegoats but I know Warnock and Hutton need to be elsewhere this season. They're not alone either.

In a nutshell is that we all like exciting players who can do that little bit of magic to bring you off your seats. Ireland has done that, Bannan similarly albeit to a lesser degree. Hutton and Warnock being defenders means that they need leave us gasping with awe with the consistent brilliance otherwise we'll only see their mistakes and otherwise hope the likes of Ireland can cover any of their errors.

[villastikz]

I think the difference of who should stay and who should go, can be kind of explained by looking at players that have under achieved and comparing risk, over future improvement and value.

As an example, how risky is it to the team and club to:

a) keep Bannan, as a midfield support player, who could grow and improve into a principle midfielder and increase in value for resale.

compared with

b) keep Hutton, as principle right back, who might just not develop and improve and be a liability again and lose even more value for resale.

[Rotterdam]

Just for info, and I don't think it will affect the discussion, Darren Bent was in Dunelm (Erdington) today. He must have been after some new cushions.
The source is my mum.

[rooboy316]

PeterWithesShin: part of the reason for the double standards may be due to what people percieve as mitigating factors towards Ireland's perspective.  Rightly or wrongly, his mental ability, injuries, being played out of position, loan spells and general lack of continuity have all be cited as reasons for him underperforming.  This suggests that given a consistent run in his favoured position, by a manager who employs team tactics more suited to his playing style, could see a dramatic improvement in his performance.  Warnock and others haven't had their performances drastically affected by other circumstances, and should largely have performed somewhere near their best. 

I also agree with Mazrim's sentiments about the attributes Ireland offers being more unique/valuable and he can make a bigger impact on the team's performance if he fires, which would contribute to people being comparitively more supportive/forgiving of him.

I don't subscribe to any pro-ireland/anti-warnock camps either - like you, just trying to find the logic in the argument.

That being said, I do think Warnock (initially under mon) showed he was a very handy player, and if he rediscovered that form, I'd be more than happy for him to stay.

[Mazrim]

Oh, I'd just like to say that I think this season Daniel Johnson will start to emerge as a first team player and make Bannans life even more difficult. And hopefully we'll see Gardner thrive under a better manager who knows how to use him. It wasnt all McLeish's fault and his introduction has been underwhelming regardless of tactics but I still believe this kid is something special. Carruthers should start to get some action too. These players (the three mentioned and a few more besides) have preseason to shine and I expect a few of them will suprise Lambert and give him food for thought.

[Risso]

Oh, I'd just like to say that I think this season Daniel Johnson will start to emerge as a first team player and make Bannans life even more difficult. And hopefully we'll see Gardner thrive under a better manager who knows how to use him. It wasnt all McLeish's fault and his introduction has been underwhelming regardless of tactics but I still believe this kid is something special. Carruthers should start to get some action too. These players (the three mentioned and a few more besides) have preseason to shine and I expect a few of them will suprise Lambert and give him food for thought.

I hope so.  I'd also like to see Albrighton get back to his form of two seasons ago, and Clark make a step up from promising youngster to established first choice on merit.  I think he's the most talented of all the kids to be honest.

[PeterWithesShin]

For my sins I watched the 10/11 DVD the other night and one thing stood out was what a beast Albrighton was for a while. Some of the crosses he put it were pure evil to try and defend.

[Mazrim]

That player is still there somewhere. A lot of people are jumping the gun writing him off I think.

[Toronto Villa]

Like a number of our players the confidence was completely taken fromm them last season. Think about McLeish gives you a team talk about trying not to lose, and then you go make a mistake as a young kid. You're belief, which is already at an all time low, added to an already very tense crowd, gets even more shredded. Albrighton regressed, and a good piece of that will be on him, but it will help him and others to come out of their shells a bit this season with Lambert.

[Concrete John]

Let's not forget that Albrighton was also pretty poor the latter half of 10/11, so it's not just the Scottish Manager syndrome with him.  Although I agree it's too soon to right him off, he does need to step up next season or he'll probably need to be moved on, most likely to a Championship club.