Bent - Ireland deserves 'hole' role

[Mazrim]

Well, there's the rub. Forget the last two seasons. He was a misfit with Houllier and McLeish didn't really know how to get a team to attack so Ireland was wasted. And still usually (officially) our best player, in fact.

It would be nice to have Ireland AND a forward to compete for that position.

[PeterWithesShin]

Out of interest, how come we have to forget the last 2 seasons with Ireland but not with Warnock, Hutton and so on? Surely it should be a case of everyone gets a clean slate or we judge all players on their performances of the last 2 years.

[not3bad]

Well, Warnock was already going off the boil before MON left, and Hutton didn't exactly have a reputation as a great defender before he arrived.  That's in contrast to Ireland who had won player of the year awards at Manchester City and does offer something very few other players do. 

[PeterWithesShin]

Warnock was playing well a few years ago though, which is around the same time Ireland won his player of the year award at City.

So why one rule for Ireland, Bannan and so on but not for others?

[not3bad]

Well, from a personal viewpoint, I've seen 3 moments watching Villa in the last two years that have left me steaming with rage.  Two of those moments have been provided by Stephen Warnock.  As for Hutton, I think he suffered in comparison to Kyle Walker.

Also, Bannan is a product of the youth system so people are more likely to want him to do well.

[PeterWithesShin]

Don't get me wrong, it's not as though i'm a massive fan of Warnock, Hutton etc but it bugs me how we have to give certain players more time, forget the past etc while others are damned for what they did over the same period and don't get given another second's grace.

[not3bad]

Well I think the one thing positive expectation people had of TSM was that he would sort the defense out - that was supposed to be his forte.  Going by that logic Hutton and Warnock should have thrived last season, in a way that players like Bannan and Ireland could not.  Yet they just as bad as all the rest.  Was that down to them as players or just being badly managed?

[Mister E]

Don't get me wrong, it's not as though i'm a massive fan of Warnock, Hutton etc but it bugs me how we have to give certain players more time, forget the past etc while others are damned for what they did over the same period and don't get given another second's grace.

I'd agree with you PWS. As you know, though, we do all seem to enjoy having a scapegoat or two in the squad; currently we have several that we like to beat up on, including Hutton and Warnock.

Hutton - whom I dislike intensely - had some good moments in the season, when he (legitimately) bullied opposition wingers; and his runs down the wing were good at times. But his positioning and bouts of mentalness make him a poor fulback.
Warnock's commitment was commendable and he occasionally made some good runs down the wing; also, his role as fill-in left midfield seemed to suit him. But he has also some rash moments and is not the best tackler.
Last season we had several 'aunt sallys' (Dunne, Heskey, Jenas, were all in the frame) but the two fullbacks have endured longer than most.

[Mazrim]

Out of interest, how come we have to forget the last 2 seasons with Ireland but not with Warnock, Hutton and so on? Surely it should be a case of everyone gets a clean slate or we judge all players on their performances of the last 2 years.

A fair comment but I think the answer is fairly obvious to me. In a season where we were overly defensive, Ireland was still the player of the season (not much to crow about I know), whereas Hutton and Warnock were liabilities.
Also, Ireland is entering his prime and has shown he can be a top player in this league if properly utilised. It's also a lot harder for us to get a player like Ireland whereas players better than Warnock and Hutton shouldn't be too much of a stretch.

I'm not really interested in scapegoats but I know Warnock and Hutton need to be elsewhere this season. They're not alone either.

[tomd2103]

Out of interest, how come we have to forget the last 2 seasons with Ireland but not with Warnock, Hutton and so on? Surely it should be a case of everyone gets a clean slate or we judge all players on their performances of the last 2 years.

A fair comment but I think the answer is fairly obvious to me. In a season where we were overly defensive, Ireland was still the player of the season (not much to crow about I know), whereas Hutton and Warnock were liabilities.
Also, Ireland is entering his prime and has shown he can be a top player in this league if properly utilised. It's also a lot harder for us to get a player like Ireland whereas players better than Warnock and Hutton shouldn't be too much of a stretch.

I'm not really interested in scapegoats but I know Warnock and Hutton need to be elsewhere this season. They're not alone either.

I don't want to come across as anti Stephen Ireland, as I think he is talented and was good in patches last season.  There seems to be a feeling that he has suffered at the hands of our past two managers, which kind of absolves him of any blame at all.  I personally think the biggest issue with Stephen Ireland is not his ability as a footballer, it's his mentality and attitude.  As I said, I thought he did well in patches last season, but just after he had a good game you would turn up to the next match and find out that he wasn't even on the bench.  I personally doubt he has the mental or physical attributes to play a full season and therefore can't understand calls for him to become a central figure going forward.  I would love for him to fulfil his potential at Villa and recapture the form he showed earlier in his career, but I'm afraid I just don't see it happening.   

[PeterWithesShin]

Out of interest, how come we have to forget the last 2 seasons with Ireland but not with Warnock, Hutton and so on? Surely it should be a case of everyone gets a clean slate or we judge all players on their performances of the last 2 years.

A fair comment but I think the answer is fairly obvious to me. In a season where we were overly defensive, Ireland was still the player of the season (not much to crow about I know), whereas Hutton and Warnock were liabilities.
Also, Ireland is entering his prime and has shown he can be a top player in this league if properly utilised. It's also a lot harder for us to get a player like Ireland whereas players better than Warnock and Hutton shouldn't be too much of a stretch.

I'm not really interested in scapegoats but I know Warnock and Hutton need to be elsewhere this season. They're not alone either.

By being overly defensive didn't we put more pressure on the defence thus making them more likely to make a mistake due to having to do more?
Or if you class a mistimed tackle as an error for Warnock/Hutton and a missed chance (Bent) or misplaced pass (Ireland) as their errors, did the defenders make more? Or if it leads to a goal do we just notice the defenders mistakes more?

The same year Ireland had his one good season and was City player of the year Warnock was Blackburn's. So it could be argued that he too has shown he can be a top player in this league.

I'm obviously playing devil's advocate here as i'm curious why we as fans (and I do exactly the same thing) give some players more time etc than we do others.

[Mazrim]

Being more defensive helps defenders as there are more players assisting them.
And the season you mention, Ireland was one of the best players in the league, Warnock did well but not to those standards.

I dont want become champion of all things Stephen Ireland because truth be told, if he doesnt raise his game again this season and perform to the levels I think he can I will want him removed from the team. But Ireland is 25 and coming into his Prime. He has skills and traits we lack elsewhere in the team. In fact most teams lack. That's valuable.

Warnock is 31 this December and should be at a stage where his mistakes are minimal. Whereas he's been shite for two years and a liability. Ireland plays in a position where he can take calculated risks, Warnock does not.
And whilst Ireland did not light up the league last season his improvement under difficult circumstances has given him the right to be part of our plans still. I think Warnock has had his chances now and its time to move on. There's nothing personal in that opinion. Its just based on what I see.
He's not comfortable in his surroundings and has said so. Time to go, for him and for us.

With Hutton, well, he isnt as good as the two younger options we had for his position, so to me it makes sense to get a better first choice in or just let the two (Lichaj and Herd) that are better than him fight it out and get some cash for him. Again, nothing personal, I just dont think he's good enough.

It may be Lambert will come in and they will click with him and find new reserves of enthusiasm and ability. But I wouldn't expect it.

I dont want to dwell on Ireland, Warnock and Hutton though. There are several players who need to go and some I dont care if they do or not. But at least with Ireland I can see a player that could help us to be that top 6 side in the next few years. I dont think there's any chance of that with the likes of Warnock and Hutton.

It would be nice if we weren't cringing every time the ball comes anywhere near our box.

[hartman_1982]

Out of interest, how come we have to forget the last 2 seasons with Ireland but not with Warnock, Hutton and so on? Surely it should be a case of everyone gets a clean slate or we judge all players on their performances of the last 2 years.

Ireland was our player of the year last year.

[damon loves JT]

Out of interest, how come we have to forget the last 2 seasons with Ireland but not with Warnock, Hutton and so on? Surely it should be a case of everyone gets a clean slate or we judge all players on their performances of the last 2 years.

Ireland was our player of the year last year.

yes, let's wipe the slate clean and give him a chance to be as bad as everyone else.

[tomd2103]

Out of interest, how come we have to forget the last 2 seasons with Ireland but not with Warnock, Hutton and so on? Surely it should be a case of everyone gets a clean slate or we judge all players on their performances of the last 2 years.

Ireland was our player of the year last year.

I am sure I heard somewhere that the player of the year award was decided by the number of Man of the Match awards players got.  The problem with using that particular method is doesn't give an accurate reflection on the player's contribution over the whole season.