Have we been in denial?

[Greg N'Ash]

Bring it slightly more back onto topic. I want to take a look at the squad McLeish inherited and the money that was given to him before deciding whether it's our squad that was the problem or McLeish that was the problem.

So here is our squad from the day McLeish arrived (I've taken Young and Downing out as they were already off):

1. Guzan (?)
2. Young (Herd)
4. Dunne (Cuellar)
5. Collins (Clark/Baker)
3. Warnock (Lichaj)
6. Makoun (Delph)
8. Petrov (Gardner)
7. Ireland (Bannan)
10. Albrighton (?)
11. Gabby (?)
9. Bent (Heskey/Weimann)

1-11 suggesting the first team that we had when McLeish arrived. As you can see, we had a pretty good squad considering we had about 15 players leave. When McLeish arrived, Downing and Young were off. That meant we had £20m to rebuilt the squad.

I'm not sure i'd call that a pretty solid squad. Mainly kids as reserves or no-one?  The defence is pretty ropey bar Young, and Ireland and Makoun had hardly established places in the team before Mcleish arrived

What he should have done:

Goalkeeper: Looking at that squad, it's clear that we need a first-choice goalkeeper. At the time we were linked with Al Habsi and Given for about £3m each. Either one would do.

Defence: In terms of the defence, we had a pretty solid back four (Warnock aside). We have a reserve that could play in each position and so (unless we were replacing Warnock) there was no real need to change the defence.

Central Midfield: With the loss of Reo-Coker, but the reappearance of Ireland, it's pretty clear that we still need 1 new midfielder. We're not sure if Ireland is up to the task yet. We have some good reserves that can come in but three experienced midfielders aren't really enough.

Wingers: We lost two heavily important wingers. We need 2 more to replace them. Albrighton is a bit out of sorts following Houlliers reign and Gabby isn't exactly a winger.

Strikers: We have Bent, Gabby, Heskey and Weimann. No changes necessary.

What he actually did:

Goalkeeper: Picked up Given for £3m. Obvious choice.

Defence: Sell an experienced and in form Luke Young for £500k. Replace him with Alan Hutton for £3,500,000.

Think Young wanted to go, the club certainly wanted him gone. Hutton was a mistake but i'm not sure you can put Young leaving down to the manager

Midfield: Loan off Makoun ,one of only three recognized central midfielders. Replace him with Spurs reject and constant cripple Jenas.

 i wanted Makoun to stay but he certainly hadn't established himself in midfield. I suspect it was more about lowering the wage bill so he could bring players in than actully wanting him out the door. I.e. someone actully wanted him. Jenas well thats just bad luck. I didn't rate him before he came here but he never got the chance to prove me wrong. Keane did.

Wingers: Sign just one very temperamental and disillusioned winger for £10m.

agreed, but then nearly everyone wanted him here. I don't remember a groundswell of people backing me up when i said he was piss poor
Strikers: No change.

Therefore what happened to our pretty solid looking first team? Hutton turns out to be the worst right-back in the league, never gets dropped. Jenas is out for the entire season after playing about 8 minutes. Only two experienced midfielders remain, youngsters Herd/Clark get drafted in. Makoun leaving means that there is no link between defence and midfield. Hoofball ensues. Albrighton and N'Zogbia aren't exactly doing well. They're dreadful in fact. Alby is out of sorts and N'Zogbia doesn't know how to pass. Gabby gets drafted in at winger but can't really play there. Bent gets no supply as the wingers around him can't pass, nevermind cross it to him.

We get some injuries. Unfortunately we have no replacement wingers because McLeish put all his eggs in the "N'Zogbia and Alby staying fit and in form forever and ever" basket. Bannan gets drafted in on the wing. We only had two midfielders so when Petrov got his illness, there was only Ireland left. More youngsters drafted in. Hutton and Warnock turn out to be so dreadful, they end up getting dropped. More youngsters drafted in. Dunne, Clark and Cuellar get injured so Baker gets drafted in. Bent out for the season, Gabby stuck on the wing, Weimann gets drafted in.

So looking back, I would say it's completely McLeishs fault we are in this position. We had a decent squad, we had £20m to plug the holes with a couple of wingers, a central midfielder and a goalkeeper. Instead we ended up with one out-of-sorts winger, minus one central midfielder and a far worse right-back than what we had before. Well done McLeish.

I take you're point about some of his signings being bad but even if you do think we had a pretty good first team in the summer (and its down to the bare bones IMO), through the clubs spending policies (1 in - 3 out)  and injuries, 2 of them were let go and 3 of them are missing long term. He could have spent what little money he had better but the 15m or so he had for Hutton and N'Zogbia was never gonna stretch to include better options than them AND the 3 or 4 players we needed just to cover us for injuries.

[eamonn]

Regardless if many of us wanted N'Zogbia here (fair play to anyone who still has the N' prefix to their name...I think most people got rid of it, sheepishly and sharpish) it's McLeish who gets paid a million quid a year after tax to make the right decision. The way Zoggy messed him about following his u-turn on a move to Blose previously was, perhaps, an indicator.
You may think he's gubbins Greg but he showed at Wigan that he's a very talented player. It's up to the manager to get that talent out of him on a regular basis. And he hasn't managed it.

[hawkeye]

Regardless if many of us wanted N'Zogbia here (fair play to anyone who still has the N' prefix to their name...I think most people got rid of it, sheepishly and sharpish) it's McLeish who gets paid a million quid a year after tax to make the right decision. The way Zoggy messed him about following his u-turn on a move to Blose previously was, perhaps, an indicator.
You may think he's gubbins Greg but he showed at Wigan that he's a very talented player. It's up to the manager to get that talent out of him on a regular basis. And he hasn't managed it.

Nzogbia is a misfit, he showed at Wigan that he had the odd decent game,  he has not produced regularly since his early period at Newcastle. MOTD syndrome

[The Left Side]

If we are in denial, then Lerner and Faulkner are equally in denial... we could see this season was going to tough when the protesters came out in the days before AM was hired but they just ignored this.

[ROBBO]

How many players do we have in the squad that would be looked on as quality? If you say we have a better squad than others around us then, apart from Wolves i would say thats wrong. This is part of the in denial believing Villa players to be better than those of  clubs around us. All of our back line have been have been rubbished all season by posters, the midfield has been woefull, not a standout player there in fact we are really missing Petrov even though his legs would only carry him for half a game, then the forward line, the most promising thing we have going there is a young kid who looks as if he could be really good given time. So where are these players that make our team better then the opposition? i can see all of them as a chance to win games as QPR did against Spurs but the only chance we have is against Bolton.

[Shrek]

Ok life is black and white.

[mr underhill]

Denial? yes, i think we are.  It pains me to admit it. but you can't polish a turd.

[Rigadon]

We, along with about 10 other teams are painfully average.  A good year would see us 7th or 8th, a bad one flirting with relegation.  To lift up from that group you need to spend a lot of money. 

[Merv]

And here it is. The thread the club have been hoping for all season.

Yes, we are in denial. We're lucky to still be in the Premier League, if we stay up, we've exceeded all realistic expectations and McLeish has pulled off a minor miracle. We should be grateful that we can even compete with the teams in the lower half of the league.

Mission accomplished.

[Concrete John]

Reading all the McLeish out posts i got to wondering whether we should all take a reality check. I was in favour of what GH was trying to do, he had a lot of problems to contend with for sure but it was only in the last few games that we managed to claw a respectable mid table finish. We all new then that the team badly needed strengthening but instead of that we sold our best two players (okay Downing was chicken livered but he would be a walk up start in the present side). Most of the creativity disappeared from the team and apart from NZog who cannot be classed as creative no-one of any worth has come in. This isn't a defence of AM, but should we be suprised, considering the players he has to work with, that we find ourselves in danger of relegation. We can critisise AM's defensive boring tactics but what if he believes that  is the only way to survive the season and that  we just don't have the quality to play any other way? We were a poor side last season and Randy's cutbacks no matter how justified have left us with a team fit for the championship.

Haven't read the whole thread, so I'll just address the OP.

For the 2nd half of last season, basically post Bent, we had top 6 form, which balanced with our poor first half to 9th.  We lost a lot of creativity in Ash and Downing, plus Walker.  We needed Ireland and Albrighton to step up, but only one has, and N'Zogbia has not been influential enough.  He's also had to contend with Bent missing a chunk of the season and his main midfield reinforcement, Jenas, also being out.  Where he's failed for me is in getting the defence sorted (still had the raw materials of MON's last season where we were very tight) and to get the best from the remaining creative playes in the form of Marc, Gabby & Charlie.

Had he done those two things we'd be around 9th again, IMO.     

[Risso]

Regardless if many of us wanted N'Zogbia here (fair play to anyone who still has the N' prefix to their name...I think most people got rid of it, sheepishly and sharpish) it's McLeish who gets paid a million quid a year after tax to make the right decision. The way Zoggy messed him about following his u-turn on a move to Blose previously was, perhaps, an indicator.
You may think he's gubbins Greg but he showed at Wigan that he's a very talented player. It's up to the manager to get that talent out of him on a regular basis. And he hasn't managed it.

Nzogbia is a misfit, he showed at Wigan that he had the odd decent game,  he has not produced regularly since his early period at Newcastle. MOTD syndrome

Exacly right Hawkeye.  Even a Wigan he only really showed glimpses of his talent.  He put together a bit of a run at the end of the season, scored a few goals and that was enough for Dave Whelan to royally screw us, which let's face it, he seems to enjoy.

[Merv]

So what we basically have is the manager failing to get the best out of the key players who were already at the club when he arrived, and also his main summer signing (though Hutton hasn't looked great and Jenas didn't work out).

What stands out for me, in terms of the squad, is the problems we've had in midfield, and I think the manager made some poor choices there. It's been an area of concern all season, IMO.

[andyh]

How much revenue has the McLeish appointment cost us in terms of league position ?
If we finish 15th, what is the difference in 'prize money' between that position and say 10th (for example) where this squad should realistically expect to have finished ?

   

[Andy_Lochhead_in_the_air]

Have we been in denial ?
Here is what we were saying/predicting in August.

http://www.heroesandvillains.info/forumv3/index.php?topic=44383.0

The answer is YES...the majority of us got it massively and embarassingly wrong.

[Concrete John]

How much revenue has the McLeish appointment cost us in terms of league position ?
If we finish 15th, what is the difference in 'prize money' between that position and say 10th (for example) where this squad should realistically expect to have finished ?

I think it's pushing £1m a place these days, so probably about £40m-ish.

However, it's hard to really quantify it as A N Other manager may have done better, but demanded more money from Lerner.  Even a £3m player on a relatively modest £20k a week would have swallowed up that extra income.